[quote=Undecided]A 230lbs person will NEVER be competitive in a class that has NO minimum crew weight rule. (F16)

For your weight, the only competitive options are really the N20 and F17 and I'm not even sure about the F17.

Mr. Undecided, Have YOU ever raced an F16 solo in good wind? Believe me, it is plenty powerful for a big guy in anything over 10 knots of wind. The flexibility of racing it solo or two up and the ability to right it solo is the strength of the class. Most of the "light" guys are overpowered in anything above 15 knots.

How'd you do last year at Tradewinds?

Timbo:

I have not. But then again, I don't like sailing solo, and I certainly couldn't find a midgit to sail with me on the F16. If he's solo on an F16, he MIGHT be competitive vs. the crewed boats with jibs that weight less than 300, but I doubt it.



Not very well at all. You know that. What does this have to do with anything being discussed?

BrokenHips,

good luck with your new boat (whichever it will be). I'm sure you'll have countless hours of fun with it (as long as stuff doesn't brake regularly).
I would say very serious racer tend to exagerate the weight issue and I'm sure there are some serious racers on this site. regarding your weight - I think you'll be fine with any boat mentioned here, my crew weighs 95kg and 65kg myself, we sail Hobie Dragoons because there are no other boats around here, those are 13ft boats, we are newbies but last year we came in 5th place out of 36 crews, I think our weight is much over what's reccommended for those little cats. I would say your weight is fine for any boat, serious racers (shiny cup type dudes) might say different, but as Rolf pointed out - experience will make a difference, not weight.

I don't think anyone ever mentioned the looks of the boats - probably not important at all to many, but it is to others - lots of satisfaction in having a fast ,great looking cat.
I would also look into the build quality of the boat, not just size, you should also enquire about that. Another thing well discussed here - weight of the cat - my rookie opinion on that is simple - don't worry about performance vs weight - I can tell you one thing for sure- a LIGHTWEIGHT cat will get you on the water more times than a heavier one, simple as that. It takes some motivation to push a 180kg cat down the beach, if one day you would like to go sailing but not that motivated - the 180kg boat may kill the motivation you had.

Enjoy your new cat, post some pics when you sail it.

Regards,

My point is I was two up on my F16 last year at least 350lbs on board, we had a great time, won the class. All this "Midget Crew" required talk is nonsense. It's a great platform, and unless you have raced it, I do not see how you can critiqe it, I have owned both Inter 20 and F 16. As I said earlier, if you are racing distance in a big ocean with good crew, get the Inter 20. If you are racing solo, even in big wind, get the F16 or F17.

Being "heavy" solo on the F16 is a blessing when it starts blowing and really doesn't slow you down much when it's not blowing. One bad tack or a bad startw will do hurt you much more. He said he doesn't like crew. So you tell him to get a two up boat and he's too big for a F16? Complete Nonsense.

And the Inter 20 can be a handfull even with two big guys, when it's blowing, right? That's what Tradewinds last year has to do with it.

There is no -one- perfect boat for every weight and wind condition, that's why I said we should all own at least 4-5 boats!

IIRC, I was the only N20 that had problems last year.

It was due to several factors, mostly my gross incompetence.

as for the solo/crewed comment - its good to know that he'll be competitve when the wind blows. How attractive.

I have sailed an F16 (Taipan) but not solo. If I was lighter, I would definitely look at the F16 as I think its a pretty cool little boat. I've gone on record as saying this in the past. As a bigger person, I have certain things that are unavailable to me. I don't fit in compact cars and even most new SUV's, I can't find shoes in my size in any shoe store, I have to go to certain stores to get clothes in the "big and tall" section, I hit my head on low door ways and staircases all the time, I can't sit in a standard airline passenger seat because my knees are literally 3" too long for the space allowed.... as a "big" person, its something that we've learned to live with. Somethings simply don't come in "large" sizes - high performance catamarans are no different.

If the guy was even 30lbs lighter, I'd probably recommend a F16.

Picture of my leg jammed into a 2008 Toyota Highlander. The wheel and center console were pinching my leg from both sides, and yes, the seat was all the way back.

Everything else aside, what is the min crew weight for the F(NACRA)17, F18 and NACRA20 classes?

325 is the min crew weight for the N20 IIRC. I don't really know as it will never apply to me.


Also "to be fair" about the N20. If you ARE considering this class, I would probably either go somewhere else, or wait until the whole mast issue is hammered out and what the results are in real life. I'm not looking forward to it at all tbh.

Hi Rolf - how did Santa treat you?

For the F18, minimum crew weight is 115 kg (253 lbs). There is no maximum, though there is a team here in SoCal that is about 410 lbs (186 kg) that led the country in points for 2008. Most teams in the US seem to cluster around 310 lbs (141 kg) to just barely make weight to carry the big sails with nearly maximum correctors, or around 340 lbs (154 kg) to avoid carrying any correctors at all.

I felt I was competitive under the small sailplan at 265 lbs (120 kg) with 5 kg of corrector weight. In 2009, I'll be sailing with a new crew member at about 142 kg.

Hi Guys,

I'm really enjoying this thread ... lots of excellent advice !!!

So I'm going to recommend not a boat but a person ....


Mr "Hips" I will suggest that you contact the finest and most experienced Multihull sailor most of us know ... MR ROBBIE DANIELS

Robbie is based out of Clearwater/Tampa Florida where his "better half" Jill Nickerson operates "Fun in the Sun" ... they have advertizements here on CatSailor w/ Websites listed.

Robbie has sailed all the boats mentioned (and some not)... is ranked second in the US on Tornadoes ... is the current F18 US National Champion and is one of the kindest gentleman and best sailors you'll ever have the pleasure to meet.

So that's my recommendation, a person not a particular boat ... so contact Robbie through Jill and if you can make a trip to the Tampa area ... go talk w/ Robbie and see if you can get him to take you out for a sail.


And ... WELCOME TO THE "DARK SIDE" of sailing ...

Sail Flat, Sail Fast, Sail Safe
HarryMurphey
TheMightyHobie18/#9458, Fleet54/Div11
P19MX w/Spin, CRAC/Open Class
43'Tri TripleThreat: Race Crew

Hmurphey, what do you think happens when you call a guy to recommend a boat, and that guy just happens to own a particular brand's dealership? Hmmmmm.........

Fortunately or unfortunately - looks like a used F16 just came on the market. check the classifieds...

Broken, There is some bigger A cat guys around. While 230 is going to be a stretch on any single handed cat there is some A cat designs that handle a heaver crew weight. There is a boat designed by Steve Clark and I believe there is a few of these around. Also the Mastrom is suitable for a bigger person and there are a few good ones around for sale a a good price. There is even one with a spin package available in Ft Lauderdale. The A cat class is alive well all over the USA with a great event schedule year round. http://www.usaca.info/

Trey,

Now you have upset me ... as you are selling Robbie (and Jill) short !!!!

While I don't get the pleasure of seeing them often, I have known them for many years. So, yes they do sell F18's currently... but Robbie is the finest Multihull sailor I know, is a true gentleman who has always been free w/ his hard-earned knowledge and given HONEST answers to questions when asked. You and I can only wish that we are as 1/2 a fine a sailor and gentleman as Robbie is on his worst day ... I have never seen Robbie utter a cross word or even raise his voice. Robbie is a true and HONEST Gentleman and always conducts himself as such.

... and from your statement it is obvious that you do not know Robbie or Jill very well, sir.

so ... Sir, you owe them an apology.

Robbie and Jill may call on me for help or borrow anything I have anytime ... anywhere ...

HarryMurphey

And you sir would be wrong, as I have trained with Robbie. I've got nothing bad to say about them, and I haven't said anything at all other than he's a dealer; I didn't even name the brand. So, please don't make ASSumptions.

The best answer brokenhips has gotten is to get out there and sail each boat until he finds the one he likes.

Actually..... more then sail each boat....

He needs to race each one to make an informed choice from where he is coming from because he is not just interested in a generic catamaran.

He might decide to pick a boat to warm up on prior to getting into the distance racing part of his plan.

YEA TREY! WATCH IT! THEM FIGHTING WORDS! (just kidding)...

but yes (in my experiences), Robby and Jill are great to talk to and learn from.. train with, sail against, purchase gear from... etc. Robbie was training people this last week and invited my pals to join in the moc race training just for fun... well fun for my friends, not the people paying to be trained...

Robbie sails and sells capricorns... they are amazing looking f-18's. I have raced against them (and lost) and i am sure John Williams would say they are great boats (as he just bought his second one)

I would expect Robbie to lean toward his own brand.. but i bet if it was not right for a person he would recommend the correct boat, even if he couldn't sell it to them

I feel a desire to seperate the Taipan 4.9 from the new purpose build F16's. I own a modified Taipan myself (homebuild) but raced the US Blade F16 owned by a friend several times. While the Taipan is an excellent design from the year 1987, the new purpose designed F16's do behave differently and have alot more space on the trampoline and carry high crew weights significantly better. Together my friend and I are just below 160 kg (355 lbs) and the Blade F16 carries this very well during racing.

I feel one can not regard the Taipan as a good showcase for the F16's anymore (as it was back in 2001/2002 and 2003) The newer designs have progressed significantly beyond that initial benchmark.

In fact it is very telling to put a new F16 next to a Hobie Tiger F18, you'll find that the bow length and tramp space as well as the beam locations are almost identical ! It is actually the stern section where the bulk of the size difference is concentrated.

This post is not intented to take away any of the advice given in this thread, just to correct a common stated misconception about the (non-Taipan based) F16's

The best advice I can give to mr. Broken to get on all the more promising boats a test ride; and find out for yourself. That can be very entlightening and most owners are very willing to take you out on there boats.

Regards,

Wouter

Aren't they also importing and selling the Viper F16's ?

(made by the same builder as the Capricorn F18)

Wouter

I think you are correct, also A-Cats... and some used boats.


MY advice to Mr Broken is sail on a few boats if you can and then purchase one... even if it isnt exactly correct.. you can sail on it for a season and sell it for your next one. I have found used cats keep their value well... (but this is on 10 year+ old boats)

I will have to strongly agree with Trey on this one based on what I have seen first hand. Out of the 2, I would say that Robbie is the "Better Half".