| |  new rules and gates #164521
01/08/09 08:33 PM 01/08/09 08:33 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider  OP
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OP
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Annapolis, MD | Looks like Harry may have been right about the new rules and mark rounding when they are applied to gates.
From Dave Perry in Scuttlebutt
Rule 18.4 (gybing at a leeward mark) does not apply at a gate mark. This may be
the biggest “game change” in the new rules. When a leeward “gate” is being used
(two leeward marks close to one another that boats pass between and exit in
either direction), rule 18.4 does not apply (see rule 18.4). That means that
when a boat is approaching a gate mark on the inside with right of way over
other boats (and assuming that rule 17 does not apply; i.e., she did not become
overlapped from clear astern which would require her to not sail above her
proper course), she does not need to gybe to sail her proper course around that
mark for as long as she remains the right-of-way boat. She may sail farther from
the mark than needed to sail her proper course, even if she has no intention of
sailing over to the other gate mark. She might do this because she is having
difficulty lowering her spinnaker, or because she wants to push the outside boat
outside of the zone or over to the other mark. Outside keep-clear boats will
need to keep clear of her under rules 10 (port/starboard) or 11
(windward/leeward). The take-away here is, more than ever, outside boats should
not have their bows “locked” outside of boats they are giving room to or keeping
clear of at marks.
Boy I hope the PRO sets a wide gate!!!... are you listening, Mike, Mark, Matt
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: new rules and gates
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#164533
01/09/09 06:36 AM 01/09/09 06:36 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina | I still think the "no-rules" thing will be a nightmare.
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: new rules and gates
[Re: mikekrantz]
#164542
01/09/09 09:23 AM 01/09/09 09:23 AM |
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI mbounds
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI | the way I interpret the rule, coming into the right gate on port, gives you all the rights in the world as inside boat. You can force the pinwheel to let you in with as much room as you like... Which is the way it's always been . . . (I'm assuming you mean the right gate looking downwind - my reference point for right vs. left is looking upwind.) | | | Re: new rules and gates
[Re: mbounds]
#164543
01/09/09 09:28 AM 01/09/09 09:28 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Clermont, FL, USA | People still look at you funny when you're on port and they are on starboard and you are calling for room. Especially when they respond with 'starboard' and you respond with 'room'.
But, that 'take as much room as you want' thing, that could get messy.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: new rules and gates
[Re: mikekrantz]
#164545
01/09/09 09:31 AM 01/09/09 09:31 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO, Mike Hill
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO, | Here is a link to the new rules: http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS2009-2012-[5950].pdf -> You are going to have to cut and paste this as I can't figure out how to make it a link. The [] in the link seems to mess up the ability to link it. I tried backslashing the "]" but that didn't work. The way I read this is the minute the inside boat gets within 3 hull lengths to the mark she has all the rights in the world. It doesn't matter if she is on port or starboard. So a port inside boat can force a starboard boat to gybe. It's going to be a lot easier to force a boat to round the other gate mark or at least force them to throw two extra gybes in. I don't like it. It gives too much power to the inside boat at a gate and can cause some very fancy manuevering.
Last edited by Mike Hill; 01/09/09 09:43 AM.
Mike Hill
N20 #1005
| | | Re: new rules and gates
[Re: Mike Hill]
#164557
01/09/09 11:47 AM 01/09/09 11:47 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
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South Carolina | Here is a link to the new rules: http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS2009-2012-[5950].pdf -> You are going to have to cut and paste this as I can't figure out how to make it a link. The [] in the link seems to mess up the ability to link it. I tried backslashing the "]" but that didn't work. The way I read this is the minute the inside boat gets within 3 hull lengths to the mark she has all the rights in the world. It doesn't matter if she is on port or starboard. So a port inside boat can force a starboard boat to gybe. It's going to be a lot easier to force a boat to round the other gate mark or at least force them to throw two extra gybes in. I don't like it. It gives too much power to the inside boat at a gate and can cause some very fancy manuevering. Inside Port has always had room to round rights inside the zone - they're overlapped and inside. The one that still blows my mind is the boat coming in on starboard to a downwind mark (looking downwind at the approaching gate) may have rights if the port boat is able to give it to him...he may not if they can't. Don't try to force starboard rights on a freight train of ports within the zone - you might lose that one.
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: new rules and gates
[Re: Jake]
#164558
01/09/09 11:52 AM 01/09/09 11:52 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina | I guess it's all a comfort thing but I have this really uneasy feeling about the new rules...maybe it's just that I'm starting to get old and crusty. The first rule set that I truly learned and learned well were the 2005 to 2008 rules and I felt that those were really easy to learn. After reading the new rule changes and studying them a couple of times, I still feel pretty unclear about them. I even have Dave Perry's new book and I still have several unresolved questions. Does anybody else feel this way or am I just getting crusty?
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: new rules and gates
[Re: Jake]
#164569
01/09/09 02:28 PM 01/09/09 02:28 PM |
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi... scooby_simon
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding.... |
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi... | Here is a link to the new rules: http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS2009-2012-[5950].pdf -> You are going to have to cut and paste this as I can't figure out how to make it a link. The [] in the link seems to mess up the ability to link it. I tried backslashing the "]" but that didn't work. The way I read this is the minute the inside boat gets within 3 hull lengths to the mark she has all the rights in the world. It doesn't matter if she is on port or starboard. So a port inside boat can force a starboard boat to gybe. It's going to be a lot easier to force a boat to round the other gate mark or at least force them to throw two extra gybes in. I don't like it. It gives too much power to the inside boat at a gate and can cause some very fancy manuevering. Inside Port has always had room to round rights inside the zone - they're overlapped and inside. The one that still blows my mind is the boat coming in on starboard to a downwind mark (looking downwind at the approaching gate) may have rights if the port boat is able to give it to him...he may not if they can't. Don't try to force starboard rights on a freight train of ports within the zone - you might lose that one. I assume you mean when on stbd and rounding the gate to port, in which case the stdb boat has rights to ROOM to round, if the port boat(s) can give it; back to the discussion we had over here
F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD I also talk sport here | | | Re: new rules and gates
[Re: mikekrantz]
#164571
01/09/09 02:53 PM 01/09/09 02:53 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969 brucat
Carpal Tunnel
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
| the way I interpret the rule, coming into the right gate on port, gives you all the rights in the world as inside boat. You can force the pinwheel to let you in with as much room as you like... Somebody sanity-check this for me. If you follow all the links to Dave Perry's "game-changers" you will see that they also changed rule 18 to NOT make the inside boat on port a "right-of-way" boat anymore, it is simply entitled to "mark room" (again, if it can be given). I would see this as a serious clarification that would limit the ability of the port boat to take out a starboard boat at the port gate mark (looking upwind). Since the port boat does not have "right of way" it should not be entitled to this new ability to go as far as they want before they turn to round the mark. If this is true, this wouldn't actually change too much, because even though the port boat used to be called a right-of-way boat, it was essentially limited to room to gybe and round the mark (if inside of a starboard boat), and was expected to make a seamanlike rounding (meaning, no driving to China). EDIT: I very clearly recall attending a Dave Perry seminar when these rules first came about, and gates were becoming popular (circa 2000). He went on and on about the fact that if you were inside on port, you had to round in a seamanlike manner. If you were inside on starboard, you were entitled to a tactical (enter wide, exit close) rounding. This was a major point of discussion that probably lasted for 45 minutes, and was brought up over and over through the course of the day, including some group exercises. Again, I think the verbiage of all the new rules taken together really have the same intent in this area (aka: DON'T PANIC!!!). Mike
Last edited by brucat; 01/09/09 03:03 PM.
| | | Re: new rules and gates
[Re: brucat]
#164576
01/09/09 03:16 PM 01/09/09 03:16 PM |
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi... scooby_simon
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding.... |
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi... | the way I interpret the rule, coming into the right gate on port, gives you all the rights in the world as inside boat. You can force the pinwheel to let you in with as much room as you like... Somebody sanity-check this for me. If you follow all the links to Dave Perry's "game-changers" you will see that they also changed rule 18 to NOT make the inside boat on port a "right-of-way" boat anymore, it is simply entitled to "mark room" (again, if it can be given). I would see this as a serious clarification that would limit the ability of the port boat to take out a starboard boat at the port gate mark (looking upwind). Since the port boat does not have "right of way" it should not be entitled to this new ability to go as far as they want before they turn to round the mark. If this is true, this wouldn't actually change too much, because even though the port boat used to be called a right-of-way boat, it was essentially limited to room to gybe and round the mark (if inside of a starboard boat), and was expected to make a seamanlike rounding (meaning, no driving to China). EDIT: I very clearly recall attending a Dave Perry seminar when these rules first came about, and gates were becoming popular (circa 2000). He went on and on about the fact that if you were inside on port, you had to round in a seamanlike manner. If you were inside on starboard, you were entitled to a tactical (enter wide, exit close) rounding. This was a major point of discussion that probably lasted for 45 minutes, and was brought up over and over through the course of the day, including some group exercises. Again, I think the verbiage of all the new rules taken together really have the same intent in this area (aka: DON'T PANIC!!!). Mike Check the definition of "mark room".
F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD I also talk sport here | | | Re: new rules and gates
[Re: scooby_simon]
#164588
01/09/09 06:22 PM 01/09/09 06:22 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California John Williams
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Long Beach, California | Jake - you're not crusty... at least not for feeling unsure about the new rules. Every four years, I take the class. Last time, I got Dave Perry - very entertaining. Sunday, I'm taking the North U class from Brad Dellenbaugh. I'm feeling pretty good about admitting the need to take the class - I'll be in good company with Pease Glaser, Ian Sammis, and a catsailor to be named later.
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
| | | Re: new rules and gates
[Re: John Williams]
#164599
01/10/09 04:32 AM 01/10/09 04:32 AM |
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway Rolf_Nilsen
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West coast of Norway | My opinion is that the rules have become overly complicated, that is why I push Gurras proposal forth from time to time. When there is a rules book (a real size book), a case study book, third party rules explanation books, classes and I know what, and people still dont get the rules straight, there must be a better way to do it. For example, this youtube film was linked to in norwegian sailing media today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB-CKbd76CM&A pretty simple case really, but it still ended in a crash. Getting a really simple ruleset would slash costs for events and our organizations, and make it easier on the sport. Other sports manage with far simpler rules, and I dont see why sailing should not be able to do the same. | | |
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