Looks like that was more a case of paying attention than knowing the rules.

I dont know if it was lack of attention on the leeward port, windward port (looks like there was room to tack but would starboard have missed windward port?), starboard tacker or lack of rules knowlegde.
My thinking is that we have all these rules, and still there are collisions and other infringements. What Gurra wants to try is very simple and would keep everybody focusing on avoiding collisions instead of estimating speeds and headings while analyzing the rules and how they apply before realizing one have put the boat in a really bad situation.

When was the last rules seminar did people attend?

When did your club last go over common situations and the rules interpretations?

When was the last protest heard and did the fleet understand the protest.... (or did it devolve that X was an **** for filling a protest...)

The philosophy ... the rules should be simple and clear is universally agreed on.. So why the problem?

Perhaps the space and timing problems presented by sailboat racing require some practice in using the rules.

IMO, the rules and their interpretation are part of the game that makes it interesting to play.

"Check the definition of "mark room"."

Scooby, I did, that's what led me to my conclusion (port inside has to go around the port mark without taking extra distance).

Are you trying to suggest something else?

Mike

Well, I certainly dont think the rules are simple and clear. there are way to many and you need to be a sailing lawyer to have 100% control on them. For somebody new to the sport, they are bewildering (I still remember how I had to work to acquire an understanding of the rules when I began sailing)


That would depend on the game you want to play of course. But the tactics applied are applied becouse the rules open for it, not becouse it is an inherent part of sailing. Almost a theological/evolutional question of course, but a part I definately would like to see changed for what I think is better for our sport.

YES, The definition is "Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then too to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark room does not include room to tack....."

No mention of anything but proper course; we should all know that proper course is the course we would sail to finish quickest etc...; we also should know that this in wide and out tight.

Seamanship rounding is no longer part of the definition of the "mark room"/"room" concept and so we can make a tactical rounding WITHIN the bounds of the proper course limitations.

Thus we cannot use mark room to sail someone off the side of the course, but we do have the ability to make a tactical rounding.

Thanks for clarifying your interpretation, Scooby.

To make sure I understand, I will sum up what I think you're saying (as simply as possible to help everyone understand):

Inside boat at starboard gate mark (on starboard tack, naturally): All the rights to sail to China before gybing for the mark.

Inside boat at port gate mark (on port tack): Not the right-of-way boat, but if room can be given, rights to sail a tactical rounding around the mark.

First, I hope I have summarized this correctly.

Second, I'd be very interested to ask Dave Perry why he said the change to the new mark room rule is not a game-changer. Since port was limited to seamanlike before, changing to tactical now would certainly seem to be a game-changer.

Mike

Well, I certainly dont think the rules are simple and clear. there are way to many and you need to be a sailing lawyer to have 100% control on them. For somebody new to the sport, they are bewildering (I still remember how I had to work to acquire an understanding of the rules when I began sailing)

Rolf, you are so right. I participated in my first F18-regatta last year, and promptly had a crash. Furthermore, participants of the regatta as well as experienced sailors I described the situation to afterwards had different opinions whose fault it was. As a newbie I accepted being the bad guy and paid.
I think regattas are fun, but I am really frightend to participate in another one. I agree with Gilo and would wish to see the different situations in form of diagrams!

Yes. But it could be interesting as the stbd boat at some point will be claiming mark room and may not claim p-s; they might need mark room to gybe to then round the mark and how much mark room do they need to gybe in?
I'd wager you can sail them to China as long as you do not claim to want mark room; Reading the definition, as soon as you claim mark room you have a burden of proper course, and so this DOES change the game, as in my opinion, you may be forced to gybe to forful your proper course obligation.
(I would be VERY interested in a judges opinion)



Not really(for this bit), just gives port a little more room to make a proper rounding.

Please let me know what Dave perry thinks. I've been thinking long and hard about this one.....

add another nail to the coffin...

Please explain....

just seems like things get more complicated I guess. puts up more barriers to getting into racing. people much smarter and more experienced than me on this forum get into disagreements over interpretations of the rules all the time. just another reason why someone off the beach wouldn't want to get involved.

This is my observation after being out of sailing for nearly 25 years...there are precious few beginners getting into racing.

We have discussed this dynamic before without any resolution, and I doubt if the trend can be reversed.

In the "old days" racing was a reasonable transition from recreational sailing. For the most part, beginners could participate without being intimidated by the rules and super competitive attitudes of the “old hands”.

Certainly you might get a stern word from a curmudgeon that you offended, but more often than not it was the beginning of a friendship.

Race committees were volunteers, some were good and some were bad. Courses were not always perfect. Racing was as much about sailing the course you were given well as was besting your rivals. The skills to do that required more seamanship, I think, than the cookie-cutter courses we now have.

I used to love the challenge of racing amognst the islands at Miami Yacht Club. Many folks hated it though! I wouldn't want every race to be that way, but some variety makes things interesting.

Now we have professional race committees and protests against them if the course isn’t perfect. We have top sailors who complain unless every race is a W/L, perfectly square to the wind. Races are abandoned when the wind shifts.

This need for perfection is well founded at the highest level events, but it perhaps has a negative effect on so called “friendly” competition at the lower levels.

I refer back to:



Having said that, the evolution of the rules is healthy. However, threats to lynch the PRO, even in jest, tend to exemplify the “win at any cost” and “a perfect course every time” mentality that keeps or drives beginners away from the sport.

we are talking about rule specifics here.

When I started racing 30 years ago; we were turored in the "go around the outside to start with" rules. It served me well.

This thred is delving deep into the rules for a discussion; we are not saying this will happen that much, or is something to be encouraged, just that we, sailors, are discussing the fine details of the rules we race under.

At our level the rules don't make much difference. If you try not to run into me, I'll try not to run into you. The guys that are really concerned about this will be half way up the course by the time you and I get there.

Just in case you were wondering, the weather is about perfect- 70 degrees, wind 10-12.

yeah, I figured it didn't necessarily apply to me
But what about when they are lapping you and me?

Yeah, I know, nice weather down there. I keep getting updates from my friend near Pensacola. There is 7 inches (+/-) of snow on the ground here. I know how to make it stop snowing though- buy a snowblower.

Pete, what happens when you meet the fastest boats after they have rounded or, heaven forbid, you are lapped and get to the gate at the same time as they? Not unrealistic in a mixed rating fleet where skill levels and boat speeds vary a lot? I was very uncertain about what to do in situations like that (yes, I have been lapped). Fortunately, the more experienced guys treated us more like an obstacle on the course than competitors and was really nice. If the rules took no more than 10-15 minutes to learn and understand, like in many other sports, my initiation would have been far less stress/angst filled.
I think Jack pointed out some important things in his post.

Simon, I really dont think the discussion here goes around finer points. The downwind rounding is one of the fastest and most complex situations you get on todays course. As the discussion here have showed, it is not very clear and widely understood what the rules say you can and shall do. If it was clear, surely the correct and full answers would come pretty immediately? I have scratched my head over the explanations and implications here as I am certain many others have done. Dont you agree that the rules are rather complex?

It is probably pointless to take the "rule complexity" discussion much farther. But it sure would be nice to have some open but experienced minds look over the rules and form much simplified alternative. Who knows, it might even work very well. Gurra is looking at it, and I know some others also are thinking along the same paths.

I guess my philosophy is more like golf. I don't compete directly with other boats, rather I just try to sail the best race I can. For me, that means staying out of trouble regardless of my "rights".

Mark Roundings are very much like a huge traffic merge.

All will go smoothly when everyone plays by the rules.... Add a new driver who doesn't drive with intention... or and **** who think getting one car further up the line is winning and the process slows down or fender benders happen.

So long as a new racer knows the basic rules (USSA puts them on a 4 x 7 laminated card for you) and understands when he is expected to round or jibe or go forward... everything goes smoothly. It's a cluster if they suddenly get the idea that they won't race at the mark rounding and don't take their turn.... (just like the new driver in the tunnel merge).

Scooby's point that in the beginning... staying on the outside will keep you out of trouble in the beginning is a great strategy to start ... but you still have to spend some time with the rules and know when to take your turn.

Yes, the rules are complex.

The thing is that the rules do need to be fairly complex as we are racing something (a boat) that cannot go in all directions (i.e. dead upwind) we race on a track that has things on it (other boats / sand banks / shipping etc) and the track itself moves, we cannot change direction quickly. We sail around things (marks), we start from a start line that is not marked, just the ends of it.

If we simply had port and stbd; what happens when one boat is sailing higher than the other; we need a rule for that too; what happens when we need to sail around something like a mark. P-S may be enough, but not always. what happens when we sail towards a sand bank?

Could the rules be made simpler by a complete re-write?

Yes, we could get rid of a lot of the "x rule switches off and Y applies". BUT it would mean a complete change to the structure of the rule set.

It might be nice to have a set of "starting rules; sailing to windward rules; rounding upwind marks etc" BUT how would we document the point one set changes to the other??? It is a complext sport we take part in.

Try sitting down and writing some rules, but just to ensure that each time 2 boats meet on the race course; one has to give way to the other; the simplest might be "biggest has rights, but is that LOA/ LWL / tonnage? etc....

I like the concept of the simplified rules for starting racing, but they are not enough for serious racing.