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Tradewinds Day 1 #165222
01/17/09 05:12 PM
01/17/09 05:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 185
Florida
JMAC Offline OP
member
JMAC  Offline OP
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Florida
Early report has the fleets completing 4 races in 12 - 15 mph breeze. One bit of carnage news involved a N20 vs. a Wave. Mike Hill is done for the event, after scoring a bullet in the 2nd race. More to follow.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Tradewinds Day 1 [Re: JMAC] #165223
01/17/09 05:17 PM
01/17/09 05:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Originally Posted by JMAC
One bit of carnage news involved a N20 vs. a Wave. Mike Hill is done for the event, after scoring a bullet in the 2nd race. More to follow.


hmmmm, sounds like the Wave won that contest. Bummer for Mike.

Re: Tradewinds Day 1 [Re: mbounds] #165228
01/17/09 06:36 PM
01/17/09 06:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Portland, Maine
Wave will win any contest short of a tug boat :P


Re: Tradewinds Day 1 [Re: ThunderMuffin] #165237
01/17/09 09:32 PM
01/17/09 09:32 PM
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Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline
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Crushed bow on the N20, not a scratch on the wave. We just thought the N20's were bulletproof..

Re: Tradewinds Day 1 [Re: mikekrantz] #165238
01/17/09 09:35 PM
01/17/09 09:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
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california
No pictures so it must not have happened.


Richard Vilvens
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Re: Tradewinds Day 1 [Re: F-18 5150] #165241
01/17/09 10:41 PM
01/17/09 10:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by hobie18rich
No pictures so it must not have happened.


oh...it happened.


Jake Kohl
Re: Tradewinds Day 1 [Re: Jake] #165245
01/18/09 12:38 AM
01/18/09 12:38 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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I will catch hell for even mentioning it.. BUT... should N20s and Waves even be on the same course at the same?

I'd be scared to be on a wave with a bunch of spin boats (esp N20s) flying around.

Last edited by PTP; 01/18/09 12:42 AM.
Re: Tradewinds Day 1 [Re: PTP] #165247
01/18/09 01:17 AM
01/18/09 01:17 AM
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Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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Patrick, at tradewinds they are not on the same course. Waves usually run a smaller course that is inside the bigger course.

Imagine two triangles one inside the other, all non spin boats are on the inside course, all others are on the outside.

Problem is all boats cross into each others course lines. I am interested in knowing what happened? port/starboard? was a protest filed? etc etc.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Re: Tradewinds Day 1 [Re: Robi] #165259
01/18/09 08:09 AM
01/18/09 08:09 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Originally Posted by Robi
Patrick, at tradewinds they are not on the same course. Waves usually run a smaller course that is inside the bigger course.


If they use the same signal boat, they're on the same course.

Re: Tradewinds Day 1 [Re: mbounds] #165265
01/18/09 11:45 AM
01/18/09 11:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Robles,

From what I heard, Mike was on port.

Disclaimer: This is the information that was passed to me from those at the event.


Re: Tradewinds Day 1 [Re: ThunderMuffin] #165268
01/18/09 12:19 PM
01/18/09 12:19 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
From what I have heard, BOTH boats were on port, but it was a windward-leeward situation -- Wave going to windward and N-20 going downwind.

My worst nightmare.

I will try to get the whole scenario for you soon.

Re: Tradewinds Day 1 [Re: Mary] #165270
01/18/09 01:05 PM
01/18/09 01:05 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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PTP  Offline
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Michigan
closing speed would have been what... 20 kn or so? ouch.

Re: Tradewinds Day 1 [Re: Mary] #165271
01/18/09 01:41 PM
01/18/09 01:41 PM
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Bob_Curry Offline
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If this is such a "big" event, then why not have separate race courses for spin and non-spin? Having both very slow and very fast boats on the same course is just crazy. This is one of the very reasons I have only attended one Tradewinds in the last 14 years. If everyone is coming into a gate or the same finish area, collision factor high!
My opinion.

Bob wink


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, I’ll hug my elephant, you kiss you’re a $$.”
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
Re: Tradewinds Day 1 [Re: Bob_Curry] #165273
01/18/09 02:19 PM
01/18/09 02:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Originally Posted by Bob_Curry
If this is such a "big" event, then why not have separate race courses for spin and non-spin? Having both very slow and very fast boats on the same course is just crazy. This is one of the very reasons I have only attended one Tradewinds in the last 14 years. If everyone is coming into a gate or the same finish area, collision factor high!
My opinion.

Bob wink


And so the discussion on the PRO / Organizing Authority Liability discussion re Tradewinds starts.

background reading.... Glenn McCarthy in the why proof of liability thread and the Safety Boat standards by Paul Ullibari in the PRO liability thread.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Tradewinds Day 1 [Re: Bob_Curry] #165275
01/18/09 02:23 PM
01/18/09 02:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Hey, Bob,
When you are down here in the hinterlands where there is little sailing at all, much less catamaran sailing, trying to find people and boats to help with a regatta is VERY difficult.

We are lucky if we get enough people to set up and run ONE course (with inside and outside courses).
Two SEPARATE courses would be impossible. We do the best with what we have to work with.

To me, it is always a miracle that we manage to get enough boats and people to make the regatta happen, when we don't have a fleet in our area to help out.

I always figure we are very lucky if we have two chase boats.

So what do you think? Should the Tradewinds Regatta just not happen any more? OR do you want to volunteer to bring additional powerboats and people for race committee so we can have two separate courses?

Big thanks to all those who did come from outside the Keys to help out with the event!!

Mary

Re: Tradewinds Day 1 [Re: Mary] #165279
01/18/09 04:05 PM
01/18/09 04:05 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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Interesting comment from Bob. Even more interesting is the comment from Mark, are you implying that the PRO, RC or event organizers should/could be held responsible?

An even better is the reply from Mary to Bob, I am interested in reading what Bob has to say (I am sure others as well)

Internet sailing is great!

Re: Tradewinds Day 1 [Re: Mary] #165280
01/18/09 04:14 PM
01/18/09 04:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 744
Bob_Curry Offline
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Mary, all,

Just expressing my opinion.

Bob wink


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, I’ll hug my elephant, you kiss you’re a $$.”
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
Re: Tradewinds Day 1 [Re: Bob_Curry] #165283
01/18/09 04:28 PM
01/18/09 04:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Bob and Mark,
Bob I respect your opinion, but without knowing any of the circumstances, it appears you have offended the RC/Mary. The more this kinda thing happens the less they'll want to put on events.
Mark,
Every time you bring up litigation and responsibility issues you put another nail in the coffin of grassroots catsailing. Most people don't even think of that kind of thing until you plant that seed in their head. Alot like the discussion we had at Spring Fever. ALOT of folks read this stuff. I know for you and alot of folks this stuff is an academic discussion but for the people who try to scrap together enough resources to put on a race, it's alot of stuff to put in the con category and quit doing it.
Mark, You are and have done great things for Catsailing but bringing up all these doomsday topics is definitely not one of them.
I hope this makes some sense, it did to me.
Todd


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Tradewinds Day 1 [Re: Bob_Curry] #165285
01/18/09 04:50 PM
01/18/09 04:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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Robi  Offline
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St Petersburg FL
Originally Posted by Bob_Curry
Mary, all,

Just expressing my opinion.

Bob wink
Bob I am sure you are very aware that opinions are like a$$holes. laugh

Re: Tradewinds Day 1 [Re: Robi] #165286
01/18/09 05:09 PM
01/18/09 05:09 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Robbi

The context of the discussion is "What is the extent of the PRO/ OA liability."

Bob Curry's opinion is It's CRAZY to run the regatta this way. Why? he says it's unsafe to have spin and non spin boats on the course at gates and finishes.
Agree or disagree with the opinion on the merits. .. or if you are me... you say the issue about safety is out of bounds. All of the sailors knew they were coming to an event with 1 race circle and a mix of boats from Waves to Nacra 20's (NOR and the PR before the event). Each captain made their own judgment about safety. The PRO was not negligent in running a race with Wave's and Nacra 20's.

Bob Curry can say that race management is not good enough for him personally to have a good time and to drive from the panhandle. No problem with that opinion.

Second point.
Paul Ulibarri has written that there is an expectation of safety by sailors and the minimum requirement is three RC boats for the regatta. Moreover they would have trained safety personnel or the regatta is not safe. Agree or Disagree with the merits of that position or if you are like me you say the issue of the number of support boats/safety requirments is out of bounds.

Again, the decision to go racing was the captain's alone and if they did not like the ratio of support boats to racers or the looks of the support boat staff or powerboat they should stay on the beach.

It would be fine if the decide the race management is not good enough for their personal tastes. I do not think the OA is negligent for running the regatta with two support boats.








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