Apparently democrat.

trendsetter? Or highly influenced by trendesetters...let's see, I think I had my A first

I started racing in the Prindle 16 class back in the mid 70s, (I could really go back to the early 60s racing the 12' Alcort Catfish), but the Prindle 16 (or Hobie 16) was as good as it ever got in one design cat racing. It was a simple, light, strong boat, easy to set up in 15 minutes, fast enough to be interesting, and the race was won or lost on tactics, straight forward tuning, and relative boatspeed.

Then the Gee Whiz kicked in, and we started the move to bigger boats, faster boats, more complex boats seeming only to be first across the finish line. Nevermind that the boats took an hour or more to set up and take down or that there were only three or four boats to a class, we were cool and fast. We spent 2 or three times as much for a boat that was 1-3 knots faster while getting less and less concerned with the fine points of reading the conditions and more time spent figuring a way to get a chute up or down a few seconds quicker.

The addiction kept us from going back to where the most fun and learning was to be had and the most important aspects of yacht racing was to be learned, and that was in the larger fleets of identical boats.

The great progress, if you want to claim it, was that we as a smaller group of elite racers alienated another very large group of sailors who just wanted a reasonably priced platform with which to become a better sailor and have fun. It no longer was fun to try and keep up with the expense of buying into the group of very talented sailors we raced against who had moved up to the next state of the art class. It wasn't fun to feel the disdain the ultra boaters occasionally exhibited towared the 14s and 16s as they slowly made it to the finish line, holding up the next start. Of course some dropped out because of other reasons like starting families but too many left for reasons I have stated.

I have written this mostly from what I felt or from what I heard from the sailors who dropped out of the scene during the late 80s and early 90s. I was guilty of a part of that mad dash to technologically advanced catamarans for a while.

We reap what we sow. Now attendance at most of the area regattas are more often measured in the teens or 20s rather than dozens or hundreds as it was in the 70s and 80s. That is progress! We and the manufacturers have made it too expensive and complex to attract the new young sailors in any significant numbers. Catamaran racing is getting close to becoming a geriatric sport, although those still doing it are in far better condition than our fathers and mothers were at the same age, and that is a good thing. We used to get lots of sailors to regattas who were just learning to sail a new Hobie 16 or Prindle 16 and the learning curve the youngsters exhibited was often spectacular. They were having a great time and the seasoned sailor took pride in helping others get up to speed. I don't see that much anymore. Then again, I don't race much anymore for the reasons stated and because I just hurt a lot more after a few races on these big powerful boats.

Man,

I'm glad you're not promoting any races around here. In fact, I've seen pretty much the opposite of what you just said. The local organizer here is TCDYC and we have boats from every class show up here. Plenty of the older Prindles and H16's. We all help each other here. Sounds like someone didn't hug you enough when you were little, did they.

Never needed the hugs from sailors, but thanks anyway, not that there's anything wrong with that. I just report it as I see it.

When I organized and chaired races, and I did more than most, we had dozens show up for local races, and a hundred or more for nationals and North Americans. I guess you weren't around in those days. Then again, I don't remember anyone named Chums. Sorry, I was just kidding there. I am guessing you are at or near the top of today's sport in your class and I applaud you for that.

We provided T-shirts, food, and handmade trophies worthy of an arts festival. The old timers will remember. Great years those were. The last major race I attended, October maybe, we got hot dogs and hamburgers - but they were good. I think there were 30 boats. Nothing like attendances 20 - 30 years ago. Not my fault for the failings of the present.

The fact is, the quest for the ultimate in cat performance has driven hundreds of sailors away from the sport who only wanted to enjoy high level competition on simple boats. The Wave is the only thing that even comes close and it is not cheap by the standards of discretionary spending that the Hobie 16 and Prindle 16 were in the 70s. You also spoke volumes when you said "OLDER H16s and Prindle 16s. Much older.

I am not bitter by any means, I had decades of very rewarding times on the race course in everything from H-16s, P15s, 16s, 18s, 18-2s, 19s, Nacra 5.2s, 5.8s, G-Cats, and Tornados, both iterations. The reward is in the learning and sharing among others, and watching others get the bug to become the best they can and have fun doing it. I am 20 years beyond my peak years on the course, and only was reflecting back to the best years from my opinion. You folks make it what you want, and enjoy. I don't have a stake in it.

I am happy you get a few boats from every class wherever you are based, but it doesn't happen here unless you consider 2-4 boats to a class a great turnout. By the way, Texas has always had great turnouts for regattas. I enjoyed racing there in Galveston Bay.

To claim this to be a fact, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is.

I think your comments are most laying blame somewhere convenient. Afterall, if there are (were) so many people who "only wanted to enjoy high level competition on simple boats", then why aren't these classes not surviving on its own ?

What do other classes bring to the equation if your own simple class is going so well and is exactly what the doctor ordered ?

The only one "surviving" is the H16 class but even that one is facing serious challenges. Times have changed. Soccer fields in Europe are being sold and using to build new neighbourhoods as over the last 20 years the interest in amateur soccer declined significantly. This too had nothing to do with the new range of soccer shoes replacing the old leather ones. New generations look differently at things and the glory time of sailing was pushed to the past by computer games, television etc.

In fact, we may even have to entertain the notion that may the new high performance classes are actually floating the catamaran scene as a whole. The new youngster, with their bling-bling attitude and Pimped-up scooters REALLY DO NOT GET HOT about a Prindle 16 or Hobie 16.

I spoke to several youths in the Dutch H16 based youth training program and their comments were telling. They were happy with the provided program but wanted to move on to the "real" classes as soon as possible.

Maybe you should stop blaming outside factors and harness this reported market segement that "only wanted to enjoy high level competition on simple boats"

I think you'll find that this segment has changes as well, moved on to other things or would have left anyway even if everything remained as it was in 1975.

Wouter

Wouter,

I've always sort of respected your viewpoints. You do try and use objective points to get your point across, kind of like a conservative.

I didn't appreciate it so much when you were USA bashing after 9-11.

And THANKS for NOT contributing, to the 'Drill baby Drill part deaux' thread.

Because, I'm sure you have an opinion on this one also, yet it's not in your backyard.

If you will, would you please PM me with your viewpoints on this thread (if you would like), I'm curious where you stand on this one. Thanks The PM will stay confindential- I DO have integrity.

I agree with you Wouter. I show my boat to kids every chance I get and they think the idea of hanging out and screaming along is "the balls". I don't think we need new boats to spread the excitement. I think we just need more visibility. Sailing is a tough spectator sport. We've had threads on that before. There was a commitment back on a previous thread to take a kid sailing once a year to build up the sport. I took that to heart.

I think the new boats are just interesting for us old guys to see what new stuff we "have to have". I'd love to have some of the drawing board boats but can't justify the cost. Someday when I retire I want to do like you did and build one. Someday........... (ZZzzzzzzzzzz)

Interesting claim.

I never did any of that after 9-11, still quite a few believe I did. Shows how much of my reputation is imagined. Some have decided that they don't like me for some reason and then by default my persona gets automatically associated with all kinds of "bad guy" stuff.

In the past I had been vocal on this forum about the US self image and how it was out of touch with historical reality and how that was entrenching peoples perceptions of the USA in a way that most Americans find hard to understand. But this was all well before 9-11. After 9-11 doing so was pointless, as by that time the window for opportunity had passed. The bad stuff had happened and the storm had to run its course before any sensible stuff could be done again.

With respect to the Bullswan , ooh sorry, Drill Baby Drill thread; I don't read that one. It quickly went south early on and it reminded me of a quote by Churchill :"The best argument against democracy is a 10 minute talk with the average voter"

Since then I didn't read that thread anymore.

More and more I say to myself :"People are eachother Demons and Gods". There is enough intellect around to make things work well and get along, but most of people aren't using their intellect, but rather their gut as mr Colbert so eloquently said in his White House Press dinner adres.

I'm a factanista, but 85% of the people around me aren't. Why should the 15% try to safe them from themselves ?

That it is.

Wouter

There - I fixed that for you.

Tongue firmly in cheek.

Good one~! That's funny, John. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

Wouter,

I'm not bashing you at all.

I thought I remembered something about 'that we brought it upon ourselves' after 911.

I'm NOT searching the archives for a mute point.

Even IF you had stated that, no biggee really.

Sorry I mentioned it.

Nothing more to see here, lets move along.

Cool?

And, you do have a perspective of how the USA is seen, from an across the pond point of view, that I'll never have. Being across the pond from you, geographically that is.

Interesting perspective Alex

you write





I don’t buy this argument. The notion that the elite racers disdain of the mere mortals sailing Hobie 16’s contributed in ANY way to the decline of the sport is an enormous stretch.

Sailing is a sport with a big technology factor and a hard and fast relationship to physics the bigger you are… the harder you are to move on the water. So just like a great slow pitch softball player in a competitive league might want to step up and test his skills in fast pitch and later on in hard ball. A sailor might want to choose a more challenging boat or a more challenging class or one suited to his size. Over time these diverse opportunities allow lots of people to stay interested in competitive sailing for a lifetime. In some classes the gear heads get to experiment with design and build new stuff, All are legit aspects of the sport that make sailboat racing a lifetime sport.

Your mistake is the notion that the growth of one area kills the other one off. There is no zero sum game going on between those technology gear heads and the guys who want to enjoy high level competition on simple boats! Wouter’s point that times are changing and they are taking away unused soccer fields points to trends beyond the sports influence. Take a look at your closet… how many recreational toys did you have over the years that you don’t play with now eg Roller blades, tennis racket etc. People’s interest changes and you are mistaken to argue that your optimization of your sailing experience killed off your former class.

What you are talking about is the failure of leadership and the resulting disruption of the community.

You say
“It no longer was fun to try and keep up with the expense of buying into the group of very talented sailors we raced against who had moved up to the next state of the art class..”

Of course! when the old leadership steps away and you do not replace it with effective new leadership, the organization will fail. Why do you blame the old leadership for moving on or retiring and not the class members who chose to stay in the class but not step up and lead.

Take a look at the Hobie 16 class. Almost every top US Sailor started out in the Hobie 16 class, great sailors and leaders led the class to absolute dominance in the market. Some of these guys moved on to new challenges, just like yourself… BUT the 16 class was able to generate new leaders and remains the strongest OD cat class.

Take a look at the 4 most recent catamaran classes (F18HT, F18, F16 and Nacra F17) and evaluate their leadership and compare it to how successful they are. The 18HT class cratered when their single leader stepped back and the next group could not maintain the class. Leadership is the common element that when missing leads to atrophy and decline of the class. Renewing the leadership is every volunteer organizations challenge.
However, when you don’t renew the leadership, the rank and file sailor experiences is a loss of community and enjoyment in participating. Not wanting to step forward… they step way from the sport.

Mark,
An excellent post.
People step into leadership roles and to a large extent the success of the class comes down to the energy injected into the class by the leaders. While it varies from person to person each leader eventually runs out of energy needed to continue to grow and maintain the class and the time comes to step aside. When they can carry the load no longer and the people who have been reaping the benefits of their labours do not step forward it all falls down.
It is my view that the success of a class largely depends on the succession of energetic and enthusiastic leaders that can build and nurture a sense of community within the class.

Just the way I see it.

Regards,
Phill

All good points as well from you all. The fact remains that it takes enormous energy and enthusiasm to bring in new sailors. We as boat dealers provided that in a fairly well networked group around the country that was also supported well by the manufacturers. There are fewer dealers now than then, and fewer leaders who volunteer the time and effort to the sport. Catamaran Sailor has picked up most of the slack that formerly was provided by the Nacra, Hobie, and Prindle manufacturers and that is a great thing, and why I continue to support the organization even though my days of racing cats are essentially over.

I am glad you are all happy with the state of the sport, and that is the important thing.

Mark, it doesn't matter whether you believe my opinion or not, but you can't possibly know the opinions of the many people over the past 20 years who have expressed their reasons for not continuing to participate in area regattas, or why they have sold their boats, or left them to mildew under their houses, or to become backyard sculptures.

A good friend of mine wanted to get back into racing and was told by an area dealer that (paraphrased) "You can't possibly think you can just jump right back in to this. Cat racing now doesn't compare to the old days. It's much more physically demanding, intense, competitive, and challenging."

New or used boat sale lost, return competitor discouraged.

Alec

I don't think I said I was happy with the state of the sport! I seem to complain more then most though! Neither of us have polls of racers during the past 25 years. From my vantage point coming at the end of the hey day... I rank the causes somewhat differently then you do who helped build the hey day.

Perhaps you could offer some insight on history.

The Prindle 19 and the Nacra 5.8 were the top performance cat fleets in the country. They predated the Nacra 6.0 NA and Hobie 20. Prindle had an open sail plan and Randy Smythe drove sail development following his Olympic Campaigns on the Tornado. (It was a big deal on the beach to be able to use the same jib design that randy won a silver with... Nacra had a SMOD model for their sails and you could only get Skip Elliot sails. The 18 Square class was open and rooted in the nacra class and he kept the designs updated for the squares.

The story is that the very strong south east Prindle 19 fleet engaged in an arms war fueled by Sail makers like Smyth and Glasser who would or could change their sails in mid season. The 19 fleet cratered within two years of having 20 boats on the line. Any truth to this story? It would support your argument a bit.... (although I stick with my leadership idea)

So now, the builders have sold the US sailing community that SMOD sails are in their best interest and no classes have open sail plans. Even today, Performance and Hobie won't let you race at the events they sponsor with non branded gear in the supposedly open sails F18 class. The cynics among us believe that this is just a profit center for the builder and swear by our ability to get sails for Tornado's, A Cats and F18's from any sail maker we want at prices set by a market.

I am curious how you would see it both back in the day... and now.

One other question, It's my opinion that back in the day, the 19 and 5,8 were highly competitive with couples... They made the social scene much more social... As the boats required more brute strength the community suffered. Fleet leadership did not cope with the changes and the sport suffered. TIA
Mark

Phil,
I appreciate your insight. Success is alot like climbing a (philosophical)ladder. The rungs on a ladder are only designed to enable you to get to the next rung, only to rest for a moment before continuing on. Leaders must always be looking several years ahead and provide direction to that end. Not an easy task.
I beleive that NAMSA can be more of a success if the current class chairmen and leaders would volunteer to occupy the leadership positions. Even if it were an ancillary association there may be future uses for the effort.

E

The one thing that I can offer on the open sails is that prior to any outside influence, I was hard pressed to compete in windy conditions up until I bought a set of P16 sails that Randy was using in the One-of-Kind Regatta in New Orleans. I was immediately able to depower the sail enough for my light weight (handicap, as I saw it) of 250# w/crew and enough weight added to reach minimum. Same when the P19 came out around the same time, the sails were very full and hard to flatten. That worked OK for the 335# and above teams, but for me, adding 50# of weights to reach minimum, I was again out of the running. The Smyth sails brought control back and once again I could compete in windy conditions. Once the stock Pattison sails became less competitive, overall, the factory began offering race sails as an option to those who wanted to race. Since those of us who raced every weekend wore out a suit of sails within a year or two, and the different sails were all rather competitively priced with the OEM sails, most people didn't see any down side there. Certainly nothing like the cost of a carbon mast these days. I think a P16 sold for between $2300.00 and $3900 with trailer during the prolific years of 1975 - 1990. I paid less than $5000.00 with trailer for my stock P18-2 in 1989 with a set of mylar sails that came with the boat, and they were quite adequate, as I was 1 & 2 at the nationals in 89 and 90 respectively with around 30 boats at each event.

The P19 fleet here was strong from at least the year after it was introduced up until the mid 90s. There were at least 30 on the line at the nationals in 88, 89, 90 and quite a few after that until the 6.0 NA and similar boats showed up. The 5.8 and P-19 were fairly even depending on the conditions, but when the 6.0 and other 20 footers showed up along with spinnakers the landscape changed for good. Don't misunderstand, I enjoyed having the spinnaker on my 18-2, for what it is worth, but the costs escalated even more with that addition. Some people moved up and some dropped out. It can happen in any sport, it just happened rather quickly in the catamaran arena. I think if I were much younger, the A class, F16, or F18 would be fun to race, but the price is way up there for what they are in my opinion.

One thing I have to say about Randy, he was always one of the great clinicians and inspirations within the Prindle and Tornado fleets. Always giving advice to bring others up to speed and at least for me, even on the water between races analyzing things I had wrong, from traveler positions for the conditions to downhaul advice, and other tips. Always constructive and friendly. I don't remember anyone complaining that a "pro" was among the competition, because he was such a gentleman on the water and sought to bring the rest of us up to be better. We learned more at the races he attended than any three where he wasn't.

I will give it another try this year in a Tornado once again, as crew this time, but man, I hurt after a few races! The last time I spent any time on a T20, was in the mid 80s and the boat was single trap, no spinnaker, and a smaller sailplan. This new version is a different animal. Maybe I will see a few of you out there.

Understand, I want the regattas and class numbers to be big, competitive and successful. I just was offering a perspective that comes from conversations with some of those no longer involved, rather than those who still are. I thought maybe that information might be useful, since very few here belong to the inactives that the thread was inversely addressing.

Alec
Good to hear from an old hand.
Surely the best place for you would be on the back of the Tornado? get a front monkey to do all the grunt and put your wise head to use.
Paul