| |  Re: Should T500 be scored on corrected or as two separate fleets
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#168515
02/17/09 02:09 PM 02/17/09 02:09 PM |
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Charleston, SC NCSUtrey 
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Charleston, SC | No handicap system can accurately rate a race of this distance and variance in conditions. There is no reason the 2 fleets should be scored together. They should be kept seperate, and I'll stand behind that.
Last edited by NCSUtrey; 02/17/09 02:23 PM.
Trey
| | | Re: Should T500 be scored on corrected or as two separate fleets
[Re: NCSUtrey]
#168519
02/17/09 02:27 PM 02/17/09 02:27 PM |
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Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... TeamChums
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Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... | Definately 2 fleets. We've been dealing with this in the GT for years and now are running 2 fleets. The Portsmouth numbers don't reflect the performance accurately enough for the conditions usually found in distance racing. The year that Team Tybee came to the GT, an F18 still corrected over them as well as Alex Shafer and John Tomko. Imagine if they had 2 more days to rack up more time on the water. The F18 would be even farther out there. You'll see, when we get reachy conditions, the good F18's will be able to carry the chutes much longer than we can on the N20. With the spinns up all together, you wont see much difference in speed, if any, unless the wind is super light. About the only range that you see the N20 actually reflecting the time difference between the two is light air going to weather.
Lee
Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
| | | Re: Should T500 be scored on corrected or as two separate fleets
[Re: TeamChums]
#168520
02/17/09 02:32 PM 02/17/09 02:32 PM |
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| Baseball, from Little League to the Majors, produces huge volumes of statistics which are cited, and argued endlessly.
The more data you generate, the more people will discuss your event.
Pete Pollard
Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: Should T500 be scored on corrected or as two separate fleets
[Re: pgp]
#168521
02/17/09 02:37 PM 02/17/09 02:37 PM |
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Charleston, SC NCSUtrey
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Charleston, SC | Baseball, from Little League to the Majors, produces huge volumes of statistics which are cited, and argued endlessly.
The more data you generate, the more people will discuss your event. Please clarify........?
Trey
| | | Re: Should T500 be scored on corrected or as two separate fleets
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#168523
02/17/09 02:45 PM 02/17/09 02:45 PM |
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South Carolina Jake
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South Carolina | The current set of handicaps are designed for an equal amount of upwind and downwind sailing. If you bias one over, as undoubtedly will happen on every single day of distance racing, the handicap reliability goes in the pooper and the results are a crapshoot. I'm not in favor of the handicaps as I feel it cheapens the experience as my skill and preparation have less to do with my finish position than the angle and strength the wind happened to be that day.
I think it should be scored by fleet but, as I've heard before and agree with, provide a perpetual trophy/award for the overall handicap winner.
One could derive a distance racing handicap system that would rate boats based on angle of sail - but that would be nearly impossible to manage and apply as the wind is rarely consistent over a 100 mile leg.
The other thing I keep hearing as that a "first to the beach" is important to some of the top sailors...first of all, I don't know who those people are but if they're in F18's, let them start at 9am and the 20's start at 10. I'm not concerned with first to the beach - my race is with the 20's.
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: Should T500 be scored on corrected or as two separate fleets
[Re: pitchpoledave]
#168527
02/17/09 02:52 PM 02/17/09 02:52 PM |
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Portland, Maine ThunderMuffin OP
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Portland, Maine | One other question on long distance scoring. What do you guys think about how it should be scored: cumulative elapsed time vs scoring each leg as a 1,2 3 etc and then lowest points wins like a regualr regatta?
Please don't muddy the waters of this thread. The lemans style elapsed time has worked well in the past and we all like counting down the minutes and seconds on the beach when we come in ahead of our competition. | | | Re: Should T500 be scored on corrected or as two separate fleets
[Re: NCSUtrey]
#168529
02/17/09 03:03 PM 02/17/09 03:03 PM |
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| My thought follows the precept that all advertising is good. If a scoring procedure generates interest in the event and stimulates discussion, that will promote the overall well being of the event.
More data, more interest. Perhaps more sponsorship?
Pete Pollard
Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: Should T500 be scored on corrected or as two separate fleets
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#168530
02/17/09 03:08 PM 02/17/09 03:08 PM |
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Portland, Maine ThunderMuffin OP
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Portland, Maine | For those of you that think that doing this on corrected time will be some sort of interesting analysis on numbers - you couldn't be further from the truth.
There's a saying in my line of work about data quality as it relates to how clinical data is captured and then analyzed.
It says "Garbage in, Garbage out"
When you input garbage numbers into a perfectly crafted program, you're still going to get garbage output.
PN is setup to handicap boats racing on a course with equal numbers of upwind and downwind legs. On a distance race of this magnitude, if you plug in elapsed time numbers into the formula, its going to be garbage in - Because likely the wind will be blowing from the same direction the whole day, and it will be one or two points of sail.
So those of you voting for corrected time, would you like to participate in a handicap race on an A-cat versus a N20 where you could go either upwind, OR downwind but not both? You'd effectively be spending MONTHS of your life devoted to participating in a race where the wind direction would pick the winner.
Personally I've spent over $3000 on personal training, $5000 in boat repair and upgrades and god knows how many hours on the phone, in front of this computer, and what-have-you promoting our team and this race - only to have it come down to what direction the windo is going to blow.
No thanks.
Unless you have put in that kind of personal sacrifice you wouldn't understand.
| | | Re: Should T500 be scored on corrected or as two separate fl
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#168531
02/17/09 03:12 PM 02/17/09 03:12 PM |
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Portland, Maine ThunderMuffin OP
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Portland, Maine | My thought follows the precept that all advertising is good. If a scoring procedure generates interest in the event and stimulates discussion, that will promote the overall well being of the event.
More data, more interest. Perhaps more sponsorship? How good is the advertising going to have to be when every racer is so pissed off that they don't show up the next year? How about this? No racers, no race?
Last edited by Undecided; 02/17/09 03:14 PM.
| | | Re: Should T500 be scored on corrected or as two separate fleets
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#168533
02/17/09 03:27 PM 02/17/09 03:27 PM |
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Columbia South Carolina, USA dave mosley
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Columbia South Carolina, USA | For those of you that think that doing this on corrected time will be some sort of interesting analysis on numbers - you couldn't be further from the truth.
There's a saying in my line of work about data quality as it relates to how clinical data is captured and then analyzed.
It says "Garbage in, Garbage out"
When you input garbage numbers into a perfectly crafted program, you're still going to get garbage output.
PN is setup to handicap boats racing on a course with equal numbers of upwind and downwind legs. On a distance race of this magnitude, if you plug in elapsed time numbers into the formula, its going to be garbage in - Because likely the wind will be blowing from the same direction the whole day, and it will be one or two points of sail.
So those of you voting for corrected time, would you like to participate in a handicap race on an A-cat versus a N20 where you could go either upwind, OR downwind but not both? You'd effectively be spending MONTHS of your life devoted to participating in a race where the wind direction would pick the winner.
Personally I've spent over $3000 on personal training, $5000 in boat repair and upgrades and god knows how many hours on the phone, in front of this computer, and what-have-you promoting our team and this race - only to have it come down to what direction the windo is going to blow.
No thanks.
Unless you have put in that kind of personal sacrifice you wouldn't understand.
wait, didnt you ask the question for peoples opinions?
The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27
| | | Re: Should T500 be scored on corrected or as two separate fl
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#168534
02/17/09 03:28 PM 02/17/09 03:28 PM |
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| Actually, I understand the emotion involved very well.
I'll be following this from a safe distance.
All the best.
Pete Pollard
Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: Should T500 be scored on corrected or as two separate fl
[Re: pgp]
#168535
02/17/09 03:31 PM 02/17/09 03:31 PM |
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Portland, Maine ThunderMuffin OP
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Portland, Maine | wait, didnt you ask the question for peoples opinions? Sure. I'm not allowed to give my own? | | | Re: Should T500 be scored on corrected or as two separate fl
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#168536
02/17/09 03:40 PM 02/17/09 03:40 PM |
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Posts: 3,969 brucat
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| Sure, except when they make you so uptight that you lash out at people making suggestions that are contrary to yours.
One consequence of splitting the fleet may be reduced spectator / media / sponsor interest. For the race to truly be successful long-term, these are probably important factors (along with racer participation). This is especially true for a "grand prix" type of event, which something like this truly is.
Any time you can show results as one large fleet, it generally sells better than several smaller fleets.
So, if the problem is, there are too many boat types (and yes, 2 can be too many), consider making it a single one-design (or formula) event in the future.
I know, there are no "easy" answers...
Mike
Last edited by brucat; 02/17/09 03:41 PM.
| | | Re: Should T500 be scored on corrected or as two separate fl
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#168538
02/17/09 03:51 PM 02/17/09 03:51 PM |
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Columbia South Carolina, USA dave mosley
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Columbia South Carolina, USA | wait, didnt you ask the question for peoples opinions? Sure. I'm not allowed to give my own? Im still holding your rum hostage, so no opinions please... it will be nice to see the times, but no corrections, maybe just as an aside, or "corrected" trophy. But, I think it would be hard to give the overall on a corrected time, except if that correction is for redress for sportsmanship etc.
Last edited by dave mosley; 02/17/09 03:54 PM.
The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27
| | | Re: Should T500 be scored on corrected or as two separate fleets
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#168539
02/17/09 03:52 PM 02/17/09 03:52 PM |
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St. Louis, MO, Mike Hill
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St. Louis, MO, | My opinion would be to do two fleets. Don't do anything with corrected time at all. Give the Perpetual trophy to the largest fleet.
Any kind of corrected time is bull in a race like this.
Then the only question is if you start the F18's and N20's at the same time. My vote would be to start the F18's a half-hour before the N20's. That gives everyone an opportunity to be first to the beach.
Mike Hill
N20 #1005
| | | Re: Should T500 be scored on corrected or as two separate fleets
[Re: Mike Hill]
#168540
02/17/09 04:01 PM 02/17/09 04:01 PM |
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Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Clermont, FL, USA | I'm thinking the N20's should go first, that way the 20's have a chance to hit the beach first.
F18's RULE!
Just a little trash talk, the thread was getting a little heavy.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
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