So guys, this was it ?

Some people do some grandstanding and start throwing about some gut feelings and the whole project sinks beneath the waves ?

And then some of us wonder why we never get anywhere.

Wouter

Not only that, but those who complain the most do the least!

I suspect the desired effect has been achieved.

http://www.amazon.com/Prince-Bantam-Classics-Niccolo-Machiavelli/dp/0553212788

Give this a look sometime.

Very sad but very true Wout. We gave it a good go but perhaps they deserve what they have. Did I not step up as did you....and look at the barrage of negativity.

I don't really care so much for myself, my rating seems fair and would not get any better regardless.

You have devoted your soul to your work and no one can take that away from you. Sleep tight Pal knowing that some of it has found it's way into the system.

I think we have a good and workable handicap system in the U.S. already. It's called Portsmouth. I don't think we need a new system - here is why:

• The system is already well understood by racers and race committees.
• It already has modification factors for adjusting from stock (e.g. adding or deleting a spinnaker).
• There are not so many new classes/boats hitting the market each year that we need a system based on measurement formulas (which in turn are based on regressing a large data set). The existing "guess and modify over time with data" gets the job done
• I think the scarce pool of people who volunteer to do something for the good of the sport could acheive more focusing on other issues

America has the inch, lb, gallon and Portsmouth
Europe has the mm, kg and liter and Texel/SCHRS
Vive La Difference!

As Tammi said - the fast guys seem to end up front. And in my experience, there is always a vocal minority who spend more time talking about handicaps than practicing. I suggest a handicap system based on spinnaker color and zip code to keep these people happy.

Chris.

WHAT!?

You asked for opinions and you got them and just because everyone didn't get in lock step you're bailing!? I'm calling bullsh!t.

Did you seriously think this was going to be a simple task without hurdles!? Or were you hoping someone else would do the grunt work for you?

You want to switch to SCHRS or whatever then volunteer to do the scoring at the next regatta with the stipulation that you choose scoring system. Scoring is a sh!t job and I'll bet you a beer no, make that two beers they will jump at the offer. The only way a new system will take hold is through a grass roots effort led by a believer or group of believers!

So CLEARLY those most vocal against DPN only have an issue with it as long as it takes no more effort to change it than putting a post on a forum.

Me personally I think ALL handicap systems are sh!t and there is only one way to race and that's without the aid a computer to do your scoring. In case you missed it... I'm NOT a believer.

Have a nice day. Now were did I put that stogie.

I'm lightin' up too. All I did was ask if anyone wanted to discuss this at Spring Fever over a Rum Drink. Now you're calling bullsh!t.

Hey... a Spring Fever discussion is the best way to go with this in my opinion. I'll bring extra rum, but be warned and I'm looking squarely at you Jake (gawd I love that line) no freaking politics!

Are you sure you can't make it JW?

Oh and from the tone of your post it sounded like you bailing. My bad.

I'm not bailin' cause I never had any postion to begin with...only a curious interest in the different ways people were dealing with handicapping.

I'll be at SF like I said with Rum and Gars.

Just use sailwave.

Job done.

Agreed...and for those that care to understand a little about how Portsmouth calcs work, I've been studying up. You'll also find it interesting that there IS a basis for a measurement based rating in Portsmouth...at least to establish early ratings.

Agreed there too.

Tami has it exactly right. There is no real benefit to half butt this initiative.

The MHC has the issue on their agenda for the next meeting.

The proposal is to officially approve using a measurement system and sanction the development of ratings for the US boats.

Appoint a chairmen to line up a couple of measurement individuals. Designate a scale standard and have at it.
Some budget provisions might be needed... (eg purchase or rent a load cell). Also, sailors who mod their boat will want to get a measurement certificate and some guidelines should be established so that the measure person is fairly compensated for his time.

Get some training on the phone from the EU guys and go out and measure the USA specific catamarans.

The MHC would then publish the US approved ratings table just like the Portsmouth committee publishes the PN yardstick.

The Ratings Committee would be assigned the job of writing a fair and balanced FAQ which would detail the differences between the rating systems.

In the event that a measurement certificate can not be issued, the MHC would issue a provisional rating pending measurement and this would be published by pick some date certain. And this rating would be the official rating and not subject to change with out a valid measurement certificate.

A ratings file containing both the USPN and Windspeed adjusted ratings, SCHRS and Texel and NMBR would be published on Sailwave with a Faq on how to score a race using one or all four of the rating systems. This is the point where boat names would be unified and we would need to vet each of the EU boats in the table as appropriate for the NA market.

You would also want the committee to collect regatta results of Portsmouth versus Measurement system and an assessment from the regatta scorekeeper

The Ratings Committee would then have to evaluate the data and make more recommendations for the MHC meeting in a year.

Since Jack owns one of the US specific boats... he would be a likely measurement person for Florida. I seem to remember that Ding had some scales in his possession and i bet we could get him to weigh a Nacra F17 for us... I know he has a certain fondness for and would love to know more about the infamous Frankenboat!

At the end of the day...Each Organizing Authority will choose how they want to run their races... just as they do now.

We should be clear... WE DO NOT EXPECT TO SEE ANY SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES IN THE TROPHIES AWARDED. As Tami said... The fast guys are gonna win... and that is the way it should be

Having a workable US Measurement based system should be beneficial for any future developments.

(It would also be very neat if we could find Herb Malm's NAMSA measurement formula and regression process. This work follows from his efforts in the 70's and early 80's and it would be appropriate to recognize his work.) A fun project for any historian's out there!

There it is! Now let's see if the MHC has any stones.

I have certified scales and a tape measure.

Jack, this subject was on the agenda about three months ago. Welcome to the party.

I'm curious what you think would demonstrate stones. Would, perhaps, developing ratings for several hundred boats using measurement and performance data over a variety of wind ranges count? How about if it were done consistently for 40 years and became the national standard? If they really wanted to demonstrate they were serious, they could even develop a couple of multihull championships that provide new and exciting boats for people to try each year - there could be a series of qualifiers so that each region of the country could have a shot at competing. That would be awesome.

In another thread, I'll roll out the toll-free number for the conference call we've scheduled for those folks who have an interest and can't be in Denver. Please take the time to do your homework on Roberts Rules of Order and whatever topic for which you intend to participate in the discussion. Jack, I expect you would want to start HERE.

Mark, you're getting ahead of yourself a bit. There are no motions before the Council. Please don't give folks the impression that there are. You know I'm beyond willing to talk about this stuff - we've spent plenty of time on the phone.

Folks, anyone who decides they want to talk about a new ratings system for the US that doesn't understand Portsmouth will not have much credibility. We have had many different people show up at a single meeting aflame with passion and ideas who disappeared as soon as the discussion got serious. We have also had people envision and enact fundamental change and good ideas large and small that benefited the entire multihull community - they did it through reasoned and studied approach, persuasion, and consistent effort. One of those two ways of doing things works.

It would also be a very good idea to not come with preconceptions - if you imagine that anyone on the Council is mired in the "old" way of doing things or will mindlessly defend the status quo, I can only say that you are indeed "imagining."

I'm heartened by the amount of discourse here - takes a lot of apples to get a glass of cider.

A) Not my job, though the Council has taken an interest due to input from people like you. You're welcome.

B) This is exactly what I mean by doing homework, Pete. Who is in charge of Portsmouth numbers? Does the Multihull Council have any authority? Who has authority over the Portsmouth Committee, i.e, under what authority was it formed? Have you discussed your position with anyone that is in a position to actually do anything about it, or are you just mouthing off? Your beef is with regatta organizers as you have stated it - what the kiss do you think I can do to make someone not give separate starts to boats that make class? Get real or go sing your song to someone who doesn't already know why you're dissatisfied. You can probably hold their attention as long as you held mine.

ps - a tip; don't slag off the next guy in line or tell him his or her volunteer efforts are not worthy of your respect once they explain that your concerns are outside their ability to address.

Edit: Pete, why delete your post?

Perhaps that is just a peception that I have that there might be "old guard" resistance to change.

And bare in mind that I have never once said that I would like PH to go away. NOT ONCE. I just would like to see a well conceived alternative that would be available to RC's and organizers should they choose.

cause it was a bit out of line I think.

I'm done with this. "Corinthian" that's a laugh.