The words "Carbon" and "keeping costs down" are rarely used in the same sentence.

Have you guys thought about fitting a chickenwire for trapping out downwind?
That will keep you from Peter-Panning to the forestay.

Tim to answer your question about the viper, the hardware between the caps and vipers is interchangeable. The beams, rudders, rudder stocks, boom and spin pole are the same on both boats. Obviously the spin pole and boom my have different lengths, but the material and build is exactly the same on both boats. This obviously enables AHPC to maintain cost down because they can pick hardware off the wall to either build an F18 or F16.

Indeed, I've owned a US Blade and an AHPC Viper - both are superb boats. The Viper is supposedly heavier (I have not officially weighed either) - the extra weight seems to be in the beams, the daggerboards and the rudders. The intention for the Viper is to to have a stiffer platform for waves, chop and heavy air - AUS built and delivered.

Does it pay off?? Time will tell.

Additionally, at its current specs - the Viper meets the F104/5 rule. The market in EU is much greater and to meet 2 classes in design may have been preferable. THIS IS MY OWN ASSUMPTION.

Sorry mate. I've always been a outspoken fan of NOT ruling on any material choice. I've always done my upmost to keep such rulings out of the framework. There was a proposal by AHPC however along those lines 5 years back.

Somebody can make a F16 from gold and platinium is he wants to; it will not result in a faster boat.

Wouter

In some locales, Alu tube is VERY expensive; I know of one example where it has been cheaper to build beams out of Carbon instead of buying Alu tume over the counter.

F16 ruleset allows for flexibility.

I did say "rarely"
For a factory I would imagine the added cost for skilled carbon builders is the real cost issue.

To make sure we get as far off topic as possible, let us now discuss building a Carbon F16...

So, I want to change out everything on my Blade to carbon, starting with the beams, but also the spin pole and boom, so how much weight will that save me vs. the aluminum stuff? How much lighter is carbon, per tubular foot, than aluminum? I know, depends on the size of the tube, but in general, how much lighter, expressed as a percentage or any other semi accurate measure.

If money were no object, I would just use carbon for everything, how much lighter would the boat be? An 18' A cat can be built at 160lbs. so that's about 70lbs. lighter, I would say the extra 2' of hull wt. on the A would offset the extra wt. of the spin gear on the F16, so I think it should be possible to build an F16 at 160 too.

AND...why don't any F16's have the curved travler tracks, like the A cats and Tornados do??

Now, who can afford it? $30,000? And then there is the 70lbs. of corrector weights to contend with!

Please, if you reply, be sure not to discuss trapping downwind in this thread, save that for the thread about building F16's...

Following Tim's sugestion and keeping this thread hijacked---

Weight within the amount the Vipers are heavy will get lost in performance given wind variations and skipper skills. It will make some difference around the beach, but big deal.

The Viper though is not Aus built. At last tally it was being built in Thailand. They also supposedly use the pieces where possible from the F18 to keep cost down. This is a convienece issue and not specifically done to improve or stiffen anything. MYopinion on the Viper is that it is an afterthought. They took a Cap hull and cut 2 feet out of it and used the same bits. The Blade was purpose designed for the F16. The latest generation boats, like the new Falcon appears to have done, is to continue to refine the shape and performance and the parts specifically for the F16.

Maybe one of the Euro guys can correct me on this, but the last I heard was that the 104 class rules had yet to be agreed on, and that in their last revision, the Viper did not quite meet the requirements. Seems like a creative push to try and double dip.

Answering this one is simple !

Because these are literally a "pain in the butt"

And there is no benefit to a curved traveller on a spinnaker boat that predominantly sails windward/leeward courses. Only added expenses.

Now back to you Tim !
Wouter

I was told by a knowledgable source that trapping down wind (Uni)wasn't really necessary except on rare occassions. The beleif being that if you need to trap you would be sailing too high.

Man, this is an F'd up thread......



Totally HIGH JACKED!!!.


Why don't we all sell our F16's and just by A-cats!!!


Then the WEIGHT and the CARBON issue would be done with....

Pete, that's the way I have found it to work out. And there is the added risk of swimming if you muff it up just a little bit.

Mike, I'd also own an A cat if I could afford it and I were single...But I do love the spinnaker for going downwind fast!

Pete, I do not know if you are refering to some of the comments I have made, but if so let me try and clarify that statement.

Generically attempting to trap down wind is the same as saying you have to fly the hull. Both of these techniques are about weight placement. You want to stear to maintain apparent/pressure. If your hull is flying and you have to turn down excessively low to keep things in control then your weight placement and or sail trim is wrong. Weight placemnet can include trapping. Sailing uni this will happen sooner than with 2-up. IF one has the boat handling skills this can be very fast. The problem with it is that moving in and out is still difficult and once out you will then sail to try and stay out. If the wind is not steady this may mean you sail a lot higher than required in the lulls just because you have your weight already committed.

With 2 up in the light we may both be down on the low side as far forward as we can get. I have also found I can keep forward apparent with 2 up on the tramp up to 20 + depending on the sea state. More than that and we should trap as it would be faster, but Gina will not consider it at all, and as we are not practiced, any gains would likely be a wash from poor handling in the transion for me anyway. Tactically I can be better on the tramp in the bigger wind jibbing on the wind lines and protecting my position. It is also a very narrow iwndow with 2 up when it is appropriate anyway as it has to be enough to be beneficail but with just a little more than that people start flipping and managing the race by attrition becomes beneficial.

This has been a great thread for understanding trapping out downwind...even with the diversion into weight and materials.

For whatever its worth, I wasn't necessarily looking to this as a racing tactic. I just thought it looked like fun. Nice to know it can be tricky to pull off given how quickly I went in.

I did it all the time on the Inter 20, and most of the time on the Bimare Jav 2, but they are longer boats and especially with the Inter 20, it will handle all the push you can put on it, downwind with the kite. But the 16 footers are very tender compared to the longer boats.

Yes, it can be done, the question is, should you do it?

I do it all the time when I'm just out playing around but I doubt I will do it when racing anymore. I have never been passed by anyone trapping out downwind, that includes F18's.

amen to that. I don't really care how it is racing (partly because I rarely race). From a uni perspective: I find that it is easier to steer and easier to get in the groove from the wire... although I agree with Matt that if it is puffy then probably better to stay on the tramp. Some might say it is best to stay in if there is any significant chop. I actually disagree. You can get further back on the boat from the wire, pull the bows up more and go over chop rather than through it. that being said... it is harder to really recover from a dive from the wire.

someone also commented on chicken lines. I don't think the geometry would work very well because you should try to get behind the transom (I think even with it is probably the best one can do) so the line wouldn't do much IMO. Besides, the line might be helpful on bigger boats but on the blade when the lee bow heads under and you are on the wire unless you do everything correctly (like blow the trav, the spin) AND get lucky I think you are going to go over. all this is my opinion, of course.

The newer F16 hulls should be better in this, but I too (Taipan hulls) race downwind singlehanded almost exclusively by hinking instead of trapezing. Agreed I'm 85 kg but the main reason is quickness of manouvres. I found that during the racing I did, I regular cross other boats and was engaged in some positioning. I admit I can''t do that while getting in and out of the trap in the chop I regular have.

Over time, I've become quite quick with just sitting in and sailing deeper. Same experience when 2-up on the VWM Blade of a friend. This makes me even less inclined to take the risk. Currently, Frank and I on the VW Blade are at least as fast downwind as the F18's and more often then not we actually win back ground. Combined we are 155-160 kg.

So yep, for me trapping solo under spinnaker has been a while.

Wouter

MitchB posted this in the oz nationals thread, i think he meant it to be here, but all those jack daniels and coke andi was feeding him at easter must be slowing him down :>



I used to be of the opinion that the gains downwind just weren't great enough to trap downwind when solo, but Gary certainly showed that they are. On the long distance race we did i hiked initially at about 14.2 knots (but got tired of that ) so i got on the wire and was doing 15knots and higher which actually got me closer to the next mark.

Everyone who said gybing is messy is right though, although gary made it look less messy than most. It's just one of those things i am going to have to practice lots.

Interestingly I had the exact scenario of 1 sailor out on the wire and another on the tramp in last wed's evening sailing, identical boats in about 10 knots of wind, the only real difference was one fattie and one whippet.

The fattie out on the wire was marginally slower to the mark ( but much faster over the water ) than the whippet flying a hull going downwind to the mark. Talking later in the bar to the better sailors in the group, all seemed to feel that its better to get the hull flying and turn downwind as much as possible, the only time to be out on the wire is if you are likely to over step the mark.

The day before the GYC regatta we were out playing and Joanna ended up on my boat (she rescued me but that is a different story) and we popped the chute and she went trapping out while i drove it hard. Oley was singlehanding with the chute and was able to drive much deeper then we could and by the time we got to the other side of the bay he was couple hundred yard to leward of us but not any further behind cause his speed was on par with us.
I noticed that during the regatta downwind the uni over all seemed to drive deeper and with at least the same speed of even the 2up groups that would trap out downwind. Seth was faster and deeper then anyone around and i do not believe he ever trapped out downwind (damn he was fast).
IMHO i would say unless u really practice this a lot and have it down pat Tim is right, the risk of flipping while trying to get out or jib from the wire is to high for the little gain.

Oh and a chicken line can be done, will let Joanna talk about that if she wants. But that is just another thing for me to worry about solo and i think i am gonna pass.