Viper hulls are currently built in Thailand alongside the Capricorn and Taipan 4.9 hulls. Fit out and assembly is done in AUS.

Cap beams are used for convenience, reducing cost and has resulted in a VERY stiff platform.

There is a lot more to the Viper than 2 feet cut off the Cap. I will try and find out more, however, it is not as high in the bow, has more volume up front and less volume aft. Whilst the hulls look simular, they are quite a bit different and have proven to be very quick. So much so that a new Cap will be on the way soon taking advantage of what they have learned with the old models (which was passed onto the Viper)

From what I have heard, the Viper fits very nicely into the 104 parameters. This was more of a fluke when building the boat and was not the aim. All intentions were to build a high quality F16 whilst maintaining a realistic price tag.

I think Stephen has it right.

I'm a little bit out of the F16 scene lately but when I was heavily involved the Viper was discussed often in talks I had with AHPC/Greg. There was always one constant in that and that was that he assured everyone that a purpose build AHPC F16 design would come and that he felt that the class had great potential; on a par with the F18 class. The F104 concept never came up and I too believe it was a fluke. One that AHPC welcomes of course.

The same can be said with regard to the Viper hull. They did state regulary that they had learned things from the Capricorn design and would use that knowlegde in the Viper. I personally feel the two hulls actually look different as well. Sure they both have the raked back bow but there are also noticeable differences.

I really do feel it is a well build boat and the hulls appear to be right. One comment by a Blade owner crewing for Greg at the 2007 GC also hinted as that. The Viper has the right amount of dive resistance and can be pushed harder downwind. It is also a very clean wel thought out boat. The rig has some tweaks as well, like a higher houndfitting and thus a stiffer top. It should be a rush at the upcoming Alter Cup event !

Overall I really like it personally, but would love it if it had been a little lighter say 115 kg to 120 kg or so. That is enough to compensate for the F18 beams and boards as well as lower tolerances when building the hulls in Thailand. However, I can't say on the limited experience that I have that it is any slower because of it. My main fear has always been that its weight keeps creeping upwards. It is a well known fact that the 2007 GC boat was 137 kg ready to go, but also heavily damaged during transport requiring extensive repairs. In a contest between a lightweight boat and a fork lift truck, the latter wins.

If AHPC keeps building them at max 125 kg or under then it will be a great boat in my own personal biased opinion. I even think that they have chosen the right business model for it. Using the same beams etc for as the F18 is economically smart. There is no denying that. And I think Greg is right, weight is less a factor on these boats then many think (or that it is on the A's). The spinnaker has shifted the race far more to the crews with superior sailing skills then it already was. The limits encountered now are far more related to aerodynamics and not so much to overall drag. Meaning, that lower overall drag doesn't really improve speed any more whereas refinements in the sail drive (aerodynamics) does. It is the reason why 180 kg + 155 kg = 335 kg F18 combo's are at the top of their game despite being one of the heaviest combo's ever to have been launched in the beach cat scene. That was one lesson learned by AHPC in the F18 class as they explained to me. Get in the ball park and then concentrate on getting the motor (the rig) dialed in right. Afterall, underweight teams in the F18 class always try to make the limit for the larger rig even if that means carrying the maximum amount of lead on board. Teams that can't make that limit are noticeably disadvantaged even if they are 20 to 30 lighter then 155 kg combined. This was indeed the reason why we took out the double rig setup of the draft F16 rules back in late 2001. Even as far back as then it was becoming clear that the second smaller rig for light crews wasn't worth the added cost. All this is to say that I feel AHPC is right. Some weight can be traded off against economic benefits. That does not imply however that I favor raising the F16 minimum ready-to-sail weights however !!!

Anyway, this post is getting long so I'll quit

Highjack off !

Wouter

I personally think that the extra weight does make a difference, however much of it has also come about by the extra volume in the hulls (extra glass = more weight). As proven by the Viper’s competitiveness, the more volumous hulls are an advantage and offset the extra weight.

If the boat was build down to 115kg, it would be quicker but this will come at a price. Got to have boats on the water to win. I would love to see a full carbon Viper. Don’t think I would like to pay for it though.

I thought we agreed that it was the sailors who made the difference? In light of that and with respect to the other F16 commercial designs I think your statement is a bit premature. Time will tell..

To get back on topic. The boat I have the most experience with is the Tornado. On that boat your VMG decreased if you double trapped out downwind with spi. Having the crew on trapeze was faster in a blow than having both sailors hiking. This is not directly comparable to F16s, but there probably is a crossover point between trapeezing and hiking downwind when aiming for best VMG. Seems like we need somebody to really master the technique of trapezing downwind and match him up with a sailor of comparable physical properties and skill to find out this. If the skiffies can do it, I am sure we can as well, even if we have to manouver the stick behind the mainsheet when jibing.

Actually Wouter I believe Hans f16 at the 2007 Gc had a curved track.?

Capricorn hulls/foils are built just offshore from Singapore? Only Viper/foils are built in Thialand

Yeah but do the Skiffs do it solo?

Most have 1 or 2 crew, right? And even they end up swimming quite a bit in a gybe gone bad.

I used to be a believer in trapping out, but I've watched Matt and Gina sail away from me downwind, going lower at the same speed, on the tramp, way too many times.

The way I look at it is this; The object of the game is to get from A to C as quickly as possible. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

If you can go lower, nearly as fast as someone who is trapping higher, you are sailing a shorter course to C mark. If you can also avoid swimming, you are going to pass the ones who didn't.

Tim: We are not world class racers by any stretch, but we have made huge advances on the competition by Downwind Trapping on the F-18, overtaking people 20 boatlengths ahead of us on quite a few occasions. Only works well when the wind is honking and you're deeper on the course than your competion. Difference is being able to do it early and hold it as long as possible to maintain the speed advantage.

AND, I've whined about not having a spinnaker on my CATNIP for the last year, but on my Boyer ya don't need it to fly a downwind hull.
Sell a horse, Buy an ACAT.
ya won't regret . . .
CARY
Boyer ACAT Mk IV

Cary, believe me, that -sell a horse- thing has been discussed many times at my house! But here's a question I have for you A catters, why do the A cats NEVER trap downwind? They sit in, fly the hull and "Wild thing" all the way down. I do the same thing on my Blade when the wind is light. I sit in the middle of the tramp, feet under the boom to the low side hiking strap, and fly that hull as long as possible.

Still, on the F18, you have much longer bows, and much more volume that will support your wt. and power than the F16's do, when trapping downwind. I always did it on the I20, never, ever, burried a bow, as they are so long and fat.

But on the F16, all I have to do is tweak the tiller and the low bow goes under. Dig it in too deep and you are hitting the breaks, not fast. Better to sit in and back, get the bows up and plane.

Tim - you make a good point there.....I was about to support the case of trapping down wind.

Thanks for the support here Marcus.

I'm no expert or Olympic quality sailor, and maybe if I practiced more I could get to where I could easily and quickly fly out on the wire, tiller in one hand, spin. sheet in the other, haul butt, then come in, gybe, get out, get it going again. And do it all smoothly, flawlessly, quickly, and pass some guys who don't.

But I doubt it.

It works nicely with good crew, or with a longer boat in big wind, but the 16 foot platform is too short to push too hard downwind on the wire, I think, especially in waves. Burrying the bow too often slows you down too much, and that's if you don't flip. Now, if you have overstood C mark and need to go higher, yes, by all means, get out there and head up. I also have found that pulling both boards way up will help you -not- bury the low bow in a quick bear off, so when it's blowing hard I pull them up, but I have them tied together with a cross tramp line so I can do it quickly without going to the low side. But in lighter air, I leave them full down so I can get the hull up faster and sail it on one as much as possible.

My advice to all is, get out there and try it both ways, see which works better for you, and then go with that.

But sailing Uni with spinn in big air is already a lot of work, no need to add another layer of difficulty, so unless it's medium wind and you have overstood, there is really no need to trap downwind.

Don't get me wrong, it is fun, and I like to do it, but the level of difficulty is just too high to make it worth it while racing. And I can gybe a lot quicker if I'm already on the tramp.

It does, but it is also the only F16 to have one.

I put it down to his years of prior A-cat sailing.

Wouter

I nearly had one on my boat, but decided it was one more thing to trip over coming in off the wire with the kite up so binned the idea.

Brain fade. Your right, it is Singapore. Did not know the Viper foils were built in Thialand though.

I disagree, maybe on your F16 the bow will dive, certainly on the Stealth that is not the case, you can be really pushed hard out on the wire and the bow will remain well up, how much of that is to do with the T foils I'm not sure as a progressive submerge ( loading ) should mean the T foils are not really working. I would guess the Stealth must have more volume up front.

I've not sailed a Blade or Viper but was very dissapointed with the FX1 when we went out on it, as soon as you started to really push ( heat up )the FX1 on 1 hull with the spinnaker the bow just went under and continued under until you went downwind and backed off. Admittedly we had two heavy weights on board but the FX1 has way more volume and length than the Stealth. I could see how easy it was to trip as has been reported before.

A Cats do not have the sail area to warrant trapping downwind. An A Cat will run hotter angles on the down wind whilst sitting in as an F18 will when the crew is trapped out (In contidions where both crew are comforably trapping up wind plus) An F18 will only travel a little bit quicker than the A, however will be far superior in depth.



Garry would be the best person to comment here, however I believe trapping downwind when there is enough breeze would be quicker providing you do not make mistakes. This is where training comes into it. If you can reduce the mistakes you will be quicker, but if you stuff that bow or are not quiet as nible on traps, then you would be quicker staying in. Not saying you should not practice it though.

Also trapping down wind you can get your weight even futher aft then if you are sitting on the tramp. On the F18 and T, when the breeze really gets fresh, some crews sit in and have a very rocky road downwind continually stuffing the bows. The crews that stay out on trap survive the downwind and run a lot quicker. Some times they will run both hulls in the water so you have max volume up front in the water.

Pay particular attention to the kite. If you are a choker, you will nosedive more. If you keep an open kite, you will be fine. When a steep wave is coming up or a line of pressure, easing the kite will lift the sholders of the kite and help lift the bow.

Notice how the shape at the top of the kite changes as you ease it to provide more lift to the bows.

Agreed.

Driving downhill single handed on the wire takes time to learn to do it right. I ususally wire up to about 20kts and then I fall off too much!!!!!

I really do think we need to seperate the 2-up from the 1-up sailing when trapping under spinnaker.

In my typical conditions and boat (Modified Taipan). Trapping downwind solo is dangerous and hardly ever worth it in a race. I found that sitting in, going a little high to pick up speed and then turning down deep while keeping the luff hull flying is waaaay fastest (for me). I go both deep and fast; it reminds me alot of how one sails downwind on a landyacht. Speed is everything and when you have speed you can really turn the boat downwind and get both. When overstepping a mark in relatively flat water conditions or when forced to sail high in a distance race with medium winds; then by all means try to trap under spi solo.

When 2-up however, I found out what Stephen comments on with respect to the Tornado/F18. Put the lightest crew member on the trapeze and have him or her stand behind the skipper or even to the rear of the skipper (the back of the boat). If the skipper knows his job and doesn't wait for the gust to hit before turning down to ease the impact then this setup will be one fast ride. I wrote lightest person as when I do it at 85-90 kg I still load up the platform too much and pushs the boats in before the luff hull is raised out of the water. When we do it with the 60-70 kg crew then everything is fine. What a difference 15-20 kg can make, right ? In my experience, double trapping under spinnaker simply doesn't work on the F16 for a score of reasons. Note however that I rarely double trap upwind either. I found that putting the heavy guy on the wire and having the lightest person steer works best upwind on my boat. We can keep the luff hull out more consistantly that way and don't load up the rig too much so that it flattens beyond the point you want.

Personally, I always found that the F16's (both modified Taipans and VWM Blades) want to stream rather then be loaded up. More often then not it is better to single trap when 2-up then double trap. Open the rig and let it breath (stream) rather then closing it up to keep 2 out on the wire. I feel only light crews can get away with double trapping. Although I must say that the best F16 so far under 2-up trapping was the VWM Blade in the Alter Cup 2007 fitting (Glaser sails). That actually appeared to keep both of us (73kg + 85kg = 158 kg) on the wire and stay ahead of a new Nacra Infusion with the club champs on it.

I feel the F16's on downwind legs are no different, they just show this phenomenon earlier. So what Matt?Gina do, getting in the middle of the tramp, lift the luff hull and drive deep and fast seems to be a mode that is well suited to spi sailing on the F16's. When single handing the crew does the same but hikes off the luff hull.

Ohh before I forget. Last year during the NAM-REM race we had to worst conditions for F16 sailing and even the F18's were struggling to keep the spi up in the first long leg (a high broad reach in SEVERE wave height chop) to the turning mark. The F18's could just make in one straight line (although quite a few pitchpoled) but we simply couldn't (VWM Blade + Ashby sails + Landenberger spi). So we started experimenting, to reduce the potential race damage. We came up with the solution of beam reaching to a point sufficiently high to make the mark under spi. This had the added advantage of clear winds. And then Put the 85 kg crew (me) on the luff hull against the rear beam and working the spi with the skipper below me on the tramp and also against the rear beam. I would call all the gusts (small and normal, big, very big) to the feel on the spi sheet and my skipper would immediately react by starting to turn down proportionally. Just before the gust ended he would steer up again. We snaked under spinnaker on a high broad reach like that for many kilometers and never flipped. We came really close a few times but the follow rule always works on the F16 :

If you are at the back off the boat and stay there then during a dive , then you will survive.

We submerged the leeward bow many times but often kept the speed up. But this was "easy" to do with the chop that was of wave height. We crashed through many a wave, but we did so with speed. This tandem sit was noticeably better then sitting side by side on the luff hull. What a difference 0.5 mtr can make huh ? And I feel it will become one of the standard procedures for my F16 sailing.

Also note that the tandem sit really allows both skipper and crew to pin themselves to the boat. I had my foot against the sidestay and grapped the rearbeam from time to time when the ride became alot like a rollercoaster. The skipper had his foot against the traveller cleat and the other (with bend leg) under the hiking strap I believe. Did I say we really did crash through some waves ? I remember getting hit a few times by a wall of water but we kept upright, stayed in our positions and kept speed up.

Maybe this is of some help to you guys ?

Wouter

From what I saw at the Aus Nationals the people trapping downwind were at the front of the fleet!

HOWEVER - I have a slight theory that if you are confident/competent enough to do this then your boat handling skills (both up, down and around) are probably superior!?

On the Stingray I find it is actually easier (and seems faster) to have the crew on the wire, they can get further back and the boat doesn't react so violently to gusts! But I do accept that it is totally different 2-up to 1-up!

Wouter,

We disagree on wiring downwind so I'll not go there.

Are you seriously saying when it is windy you do NOT Double trap the F16?