| |  Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread!
[Re: David Ingram]
#178892
05/19/09 12:50 PM 05/19/09 12:50 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake 
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina | Todd, what Brian and I tried to do was get a bit more control over the changes that were being released to an OD class, rudders, snuffer system and self tacker and we had zero success. What you guys are thinking about doing is a bit different and I'd think Rick Bliss would be a good source to tap into. Also one of the biggest hurdles you'll run into is apathy. I know the Tybee teams are quite passionate right now but you have a LOT of N20 owners that don't do the Tybee and they may not see the same urgency or any urgency at all. It is an OD class after all, who cares if the sails are dated you're OD and EP has stepped up and appears to be making right by you guys. What you have going for you right now is there isn't another 20 on the market. As Macca and Matt have hinted at if a new 20 hits the market the N20 is the new N6.0 and it will happen over night.
Is your goal in opening up the sail plan for development to sail better against F18’s in the tiny wind band of double trapped spin reaching? If that’s the case why don’t you just create T500 spin rule and leave everything else as is. You can use your sporty flat spins for the T500 and DPN races and your other sails for the OD events. Just keep in mind, if you open up the sail plan you then have the overhead of getting measurement certs, and unless you can work out some kind of in house certification it’s going to be a bit of a pain.
Keep in mind opening up an OD class for development can very much be a double edge sword.
I love this guy...but not in a man on man kind of way...not that there's anything wrong with that.
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread!
[Re: David Ingram]
#178893
05/19/09 12:58 PM 05/19/09 12:58 PM |
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine ThunderMuffin
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine | Be forewand it's going to be bit more work and frustration than being the Area D North rep. Yeah, well its going to take a better personality than me to spearhead any change. I'm not saying I'm the right one for either of the jobs (as evidenced by that left jab there :P well played) | | | Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread!
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#178895
05/19/09 01:20 PM 05/19/09 01:20 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA | yeah what's a little boot in the nuts between friends :-)
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread!
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#178899
05/19/09 01:37 PM 05/19/09 01:37 PM |
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC NCSUtrey
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC | I've had quite a few over the past week. Between you and Todd I'm worried about my ability to procreate at this point :P Please don't....
Trey
| | | Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread!
[Re: Will_R]
#178937
05/19/09 05:22 PM 05/19/09 05:22 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever OP
Carpal Tunnel
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Ding ,
Thanks for the help. I spoke with Jack Young today and he recognizes all of my worries, which mirror everything you said. So far on my list I started last night I've got 34 owners and there's many more. Jack said the same thing about sail updates, and thinks that many are content with their old sails. He seems willing to try and help invigorate the class. I'm unemployed (lack of construction work) right now and have a little time to devote to this. I'd love to be racing against you and all the other good F-18 guys ,but I'm not willing to give up my favorite boat ever, to learn a boat that I'd be at a disadvantage from the beginning, until I have zero options. I value your opinion and any help you want to give will be accepted graciously. This stuff ain't my bag, but somebody's gotta do it.
Todd
The new sailing Chinese acrobat.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
| | | Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread!
[Re: NCSUtrey]
#178938
05/19/09 05:23 PM 05/19/09 05:23 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever OP
Carpal Tunnel
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. | I've had quite a few over the past week. Between you and Todd I'm worried about my ability to procreate at this point :P Please don't.... Ditto +10000
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
| | | Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread!
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#178940
05/19/09 05:30 PM 05/19/09 05:30 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA | Ding ,
This stuff ain't my bag, but somebody's gotta do it.
Todd
The new sailing Chinese acrobat. That's what makes you that guy.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread!
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#178969
05/20/09 02:48 AM 05/20/09 02:48 AM |
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk TEAMVMG
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk | How much difference do you think that it would make to the Inter18 if you put an Infusion rig on it?
It would go a bit better but still get slaughtered in an F18 fleet.
As much as i love it, I am afraid that the N20 is the same generation as the inter18.
Paul
teamvmg.weebly.com
| | | Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread!
[Re: TEAMVMG]
#178972
05/20/09 05:23 AM 05/20/09 05:23 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever OP
Carpal Tunnel
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. | How much difference do you think that it would make to the Inter18 if you put an Infusion rig on it?
It would go a bit better but still get slaughtered in an F18 fleet.
As much as i love it, I am afraid that the N20 is the same generation as the inter18. You may be right, but I don't think it's even close to being maximized right now. What are the main differences between the Infusion and the Nacra 20 (Hull shape and sail plan)? I know of the wingmast and know that is a benefit for sure, but I and many others would have a hard time taking off a good carbon mast to replace with a lightly tested aluminum mast, until a little more is known. What else? how do the rockers compare? The Infusion makes any boat look like an LR3 (skinny). I'm just looking for some constructive help not pontification.I think re-building the wheel is fruitless but maximizing that wheel for performance is where we need to be. More importantly the sailors that own these need to sail them, this is the key to building the class. I hope that anyone who reads this doesn't jump to the conclusion that this class is dwindling ,It's not. at all the big open regattas the N-20 as drawn more boats than any other spin boat.I'd just like to build on that momentum and bump it up a notch. Todd
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
| | | Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread!
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#178983
05/20/09 07:11 AM 05/20/09 07:11 AM |
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA dave mosley
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA | Im away for 2 days and I missed the best topic in 5 years of catsailor....Bullswan and Hobie 1616 should take note that this is a sailing website, not a political website. But I bet they dont read the sailing stuff anymore  My .02 There is no "NACRA class", get whoever you want to buld your sails within a box rule. Jack's proprietary rule over the NACRA class has to stop somewhere so we can afford to sail the 20's for years to come. He is not going to stop selling you a a $1000 beam because you bought a sail from someone else. Nor is he goig to not sell you a $12000 mast. The 20's are getting older, and the demand for parts are going to increase over the years, and he will keep selling you those parts at an overpriced rate.
The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27
| | | Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread!
[Re: Will_R]
#178984
05/20/09 07:17 AM 05/20/09 07:17 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 126
Northern Virginia SoggyCheetoh
member
|
member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 126
Northern Virginia | As a Nacra20 owner, I'm surprised that no one else has broght this up, but my main compliant about the EP sails isn't an outdated sailplan or glued spinnakers blowing up (which sucks), it's the inconsistencies of the sails themselves. I've got 5 different spinnakers, two of which were bought together in 2007. These sails aren't just a little off from each other due to age and blowing out, they are radically different. The 2 new ones that we bought at the same time had luff lengths that varied by 5 inches, the clew positions were different causeing different sheeting angles, on top of that one has an incrediable amount of draft compared to the other. So when picking our spin for this years Tybee, it wasn't a matter of which one we liked best, it was a matter of which one sucked the least.
I've got 3 main sails, two of them are pretty close in size and shape, while the newest one (again bought in 07) has a ton of luff curve forcing me to retune the spreader rack/diamond wire tension everytime I switch sails.
If I could just get an outdated quality sail from EP that was the same cut as everyone else I'd be happy, but when I forced to buy sails from one loft who either doesn't seem to be able or want to deliver quality and consistency, I get rather frustrated. | | | Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread!
[Re: SoggyCheetoh]
#179001
05/20/09 08:43 AM 05/20/09 08:43 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL | interesting you mention that...
I had sail #279 and replaced it with sail #501 about three years later. Sure, the 279 had a Worrell and a lot of other races on it, but would it really stretch that much?
I laid them on top of each other, and just the profile difference was notable. To say nothing of the luff profile.
Just a curious observation.
What methods do sail lofts use to verify tolerances? I've never done that sort of thing...
Jay
| | | Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread!
[Re: SoggyCheetoh]
#179002
05/20/09 08:46 AM 05/20/09 08:46 AM |
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk TEAMVMG
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk | Interesting stuff.
Its a PITA in F18 getting a new sail measured and stamped before you can use it, but the upside is that if it is an odd shape/size, you get to know then and can chuck it back at the sail maker.
Paul
teamvmg.weebly.com
| | | Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread!
[Re: Will_R]
#179023
05/20/09 10:13 AM 05/20/09 10:13 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 126
Northern Virginia SoggyCheetoh
member
|
member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 126
Northern Virginia | Yeah, but look at the width of the seams. If the person assembling the sail overlaps a little too much or too little, the shape (and size) changes. BINGO! | | | Re: Let's throw the N-20 under the bus thread!
[Re: SoggyCheetoh]
#179026
05/20/09 10:22 AM 05/20/09 10:22 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD | Alec
Kudo's to you and Keith.... Great Job!
Were you ever able to get a better shape in that main sail?
I hoped one of the Nacra experts down there had some great ideas.... (short of tearing the sail apart and starting over).
Mark
crac.sailregattas.com
| | |
| |
0 registered members (),
78
guests, and 75
spiders. | | Key: Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod | | | Forums26 Topics22,405 Posts267,059 Members8,150 | | Most Online2,167
Dec 19th, 2022 | | |
