You're history is a little off, Harry.

The Wave was introduced in 1995. The IHCA has had class rules for the Wave at least since 2001 (the oldest version of the IHCA Class Rules I have on my computer).

This issue didn't just surface today when the Catsailor came in the mail.

And to be fair to the IHCA, they offered to waive the rules regarding non-stock rudders and sails "if the sails fit within the perimeter of the stock Hobie sail", using the measurement procedure outlined in the IHCA class rules (5 random stock sails used to determine min / max dimensions).

The rudders are kind of a moot point, since only rudders made for the EZ-Loc rudder system (stock in the past couple of years) work with the EZ-Loc system.

Note that RRS 87 requires the permission of the Class Association (IHCA) to change class rules.

This is the very thing that pisses me off about todays boat manufacturers. They have totaly forgoten about the customer, the one who pays the bill. How can you call anything one design where the measurement is taken by using the average of 5 different sails? Where is the quality of not only the tolerance but the material itself? If I owned a new spinaker and was doing a race up the coast that I was spending thousands of dollars to do not to mention the time off of work and my spinaker came apart, I would go balistic. When the Hobie Tiger went up to 19k because of the exchange rate, why did the infusion go up as well even though it is built here in the states? Why does a Nacra 20 mast cost 11k when a far better spar can be made for under 5? Actually I know the answer to that one. So they can change to mast to aluminum and claim it is to keep cost down. This is why I would never buy a new boat from Nacra or Hobie. They play these little games at our expense and just what do we get in return. I disagree with the parts arguement. I have found that aside from the hulls themselves that almost all of the parts are from a subvendor. But if you buy it directly from the sub you are no longer class legal even though they make the same part for the manufacturer. And as for regatta support I don't see that either. Hobie has disowned our little fleet 8 just because we won't exlude non hobie boats. I guess they would rather watch the sport die due to lack of participation then allow their boats to compete against a different brand. Just seems as much as we spend on our boats we should be treated a little more like the reason they are in business. Enough with my rant, I am sure I will eat crow over it later.

Matt,

So the Hobie Wave was introduced in 1995 .... that means 14years (four additional years) of the NAHCA/HCA-NA not allowing "Waves" to come to a Hobie event. How does this help your argument/position???

It appears obvious to me that the IHCA rules are not working for the large majority of "Wave" competitors. Please explain to me how a 200lb competitor can compete w/ a 130lb competitor on a boat w/ minimal sailplan adjustments using the same size/cut sails. That is EXACTLY the same reason I sold my H16 and purchased a TheMightyHobie18 ... I was 225lbs at the time and generally competing on my H16 at a crew wieght of +360lbs .... in "heavy air" I could do ok ... in light air I was smoked ... can we say DFL!!!!!

So I can understand and agree w/ the IWCA's rule of varying the allowed sail area by crew wieght ... it is the same idea as the F18 class uses currently.

I do not agree w/ stupidity for stupids sake ... the boatowners should be able to determine their class rules that they wish too race under ... not some distant group that is in the pocket of the manufacture who wishes to ring out and controll every last penny spent by boatowners on their boat.

And there is nothing saying that the Hobie Factory can not make different size sails for different "Wave" crew wieghts.... except the "Hobie Factory" who (most likely)doesn't want to inventory several different sized sails for the Wave.

This is very similiar position to that of the Hobie Factory on another issue, as they will not produce and inventory a medium blue tramp for the TheMightyHobie18 which is the most popular color tramp ever on a TheMightyHobie18. (but they do produce medium blue tramps for other boats so they have the material availible) I was personally told by Matt Miller that he needed to reduce inventory costs and it doesn't matter what I, the customer wants. For twenty-five years I've worked hard to keep my boat looking good and now because of IHCA rules I'm being forced to purchase and install a tramp to remain "Class Legal" which color I absolutely ABHORE, does not match my Magnum wing covers and makes my boat look like a mis-matched "POS" in my opinion. And "Hobie" no longer makes Magnum Wing covers in ANY color at all ... so what are my options I ask????

So I have plenty of evidence that IHCA and the "Hobie Factory" will not and do not listen to the boatowners and customers .... they just do what they want to do ... and we have to live w/ it ... this is just driving more and more people away from the HCA-NA and "Hobiedom" who take their time, $$$$'s and interest and do something else. So we need to be listening to the boatowners since that is where the ideas and $$$$'s will come from, not the IHCA.

So keep on waving that "Hobie One-Design" flag per IHCA rules and see where it gets the HCA-NA ....

Harry Murphey

Neither Colin's nor Harry's rants are completely accurate.

At no time were Waves ever told they couldn't race at Hobie points regattas. The fact that few boats ever show up is not evidence that they are not welcome.

In fact, there was a Wave North Americans held in conjunction with the first Hobie Mega regatta in 2002.

The IHCA Rules Committee is not "in the pocket" of the manufacturers. Influenced, yes. The composition is:

Jeff Alter (Alter Family representative, Chairman)
Doug Skidmore (Hobie US)
Jean-François Collet / Michel Corigliano (Hobie Europe)
Erik Olsen (member at large, Netherlands)
Mal Gray (member at large, Australia)

No link. You would have to subscribe to Catamaran Sailor Magazine and get it in your mailbox. Go to "Subscribe" at the top of this page.

There is no varying of sail area. The sail area is strictly measured and is the same for stock and non-stock sails. The only difference is that the sails can be cut full, medium or flat, according to the crew weight or normal sailing conditions.

At the Wave Midwest Championship Regatta in Indianapolis on May 16 & 17, we had a Gold fleet for the serious (non-stock) racers and a Silver fleet for us casual racers with stock boats. I won the Silver fleet and came home with a beautiful trophy.

We had 7 boats in the Gold fleet, from Indiana, Ohio and South Carolina; and two boats in the Silver fleet from central Indiana. I think this was a very fair way to do it, and it illustrates that the folks who are serious enough to travel will be the ones serious enough for custom sails. I can't afford to travel or buy custom sails, but I love my stock boat and enjoyed joining in on the regatta, win or lose. Since I have a stock sail, it wasn't measured, but I think there was some comparison of the non-stock ones to make sure they were okay.

I overheard a conversation that some of the "serious" racers who wanted to attend Havamega were planning to charter boats but bring their own sails, and that was what got nixxed, so they decided not to go.

I have some photos, but I haven't figured out how to upload them with the new forum software yet. Hopefully a full story will be coming out soon.

No dog in this fight, but. . .when I get bad service at a restaurant, I don't complain, I just don't go back. My feeling is that it's the manager's job to stay on top of this stuff.

You'll probably never know who (whom?) you lost.

J [/quote]

No dog in this fight, but. . .when I get bad service at a restaurant, I don't complain, I just don't go back.
[/quote]

As a manager (not at a restaurant) this is my biggest challenge. Our operation is sizable enough that I don't have the luxury to oversee every transaction and business dealings. When an issue arrises I want to be proactive to correct it, but if I don't know the issue existed, it can never be fixed. I guess I prefer the approach of try to fix it once, if they still get it wrong, then never go back. My wife and I once had horrible service at a Chili's. I told the manager after our meal what a poor experience we had had. I wasn't expecting anything but the manager gave me a voucher for two entree's, free drinks, and a free dessert on our NEXT visit. I was very impressed with move. Now I have a lure to give the service one more try. We did and were so blown away by how great the service was that not only do we continue to go back, but I ended up hiring the waiter to come work for me as a cashier.

off topic - but I made the mistake of getting involved with Harry's trampoline problem on the hobie forums - I suggested
he buy the amish brand being pushed on ebay. - big mistake
not class legal - not made by hobie. funny thing is they are now being pushed in the Hobie Div 14 handbook - see page
23

http://www.div14.hobieclass.com/site/hobie/div14/downloads/2009RegattaFlyers/D14_Booklet_2009.pdf

Damned if you do - damned if you don't

I feel like Rodney King - "Can't we all just get along"!!!!

How is any of this promoting Catamaran Sailing?

Well, hopefully it gets people thinking about issues before they become serious problems.

Sailing is a lot of fun! There must be some reason people are staying away in droves.

[quote=mbounds
Nobody "dis-invited" the Waves.
[/quote]

I am a member of the IWCA and even though I wasn't planning on going I still feel dis-invited.

As far as the description of how it happened, I would classify it as FUBAR. This should have been worked out, in private before the NOR went out.

I was told, at some time, that a NOR is a contract and in the "gentleman's" world of sailing, we honor our word. If that's not good enough we should always honor our contract because we might have pre-registered a lawyer with time on their hands.

I will have to remember this the next time I buy a boat.

Matt,

Some observations first ... and then some philosophy

First, So the "Waves" are welcome .... then WHY are they not showing up? You may think they know they are welcome but the facts indicate differently. Something is "Not Working" for the Wave owners.

Secondly, The IHCA commitee has six members ... three work directly for a "Hobie Factory" ... the fourth (Jeff Alter) is tied directly financially to the "Hobie Factory" .... I believe (if I've done my math correctly) that is a 2/3 voting majority. And, where's the HCA-NA's "Member at Large" .... don't we rate????

It is a fact that many Hobie competitors on H16's and TheMightyHobie18's would take their new "Hobie Factory" sails and have them "Re-Cut" in the 80's and 90's. I believe Elliot-Patterson was one of the lofts doing this at the time. But since there was a "Hobie Factory" sailmakers patch (Actually "West Coast Catamaran") the sails were considered "class legal" and everyone "winked" at these sails at the time.

Also, My experiences have been largely IDENTICAL to Mr Casey Collins observations/experiences.


Now for some Philosophy:

There has been a theory put forth about the intelligence of a group of "average Joe's" vs a panel of "experts". It states that a group of 50 "average Joe's" will arrive at a correct solution a greater percentage of times vs the panel of "experts" (by a large margin in fact)

Secondly, I believe in "self-determination" ... or at least having some say/input in those that DO determine my fate. So when are the elections for the IHCA Commitee??? In fact, who picked these guys and "made them boss"??? In my opinion the IHCA commitee has made some decisions that have been proven to be extremely detramental for the overall long term health of our sport.

Matt, you are trying to defend a indefencable position my friend, analysis of longterm trends like HCA-NA membership and regatta attendence will show you this. The "same ol', same ol'" that the IHCA is promoting is not working. And sticking "one's head into the sand" is not going to work .... The IHCA must change (and soon) or the HCA-NA will soon perish.

I'll close w/ this point .... it is BECAUSE we care (alot) that people like Mr Casey Collins and myself "stick our necks out" and voice our opinions and try to instigate "change" .....

Harry Murphey

I have already been called an “butt” this week for butting in, so anything worse will be [cxxxxxd].

I AM however, a member of HCA-NA though.

Firstly, several folks have indicated that these discussions should be kept private so as not to scare away new folks, etc. I disagree; this is a forum and nothing reasonable should be off limits. It is certainly better to air beliefs, opinions, wisdoms, experiences, and such openly than to hold back because of feelings and sensitivities. It makes us all the better for it.

It is probably not a good idea to call each other names though.

Secondly, I know enough about Matt Bounds to recognize he is very knowledgeable and professional in all aspects of his devotion to cat sailing. Matt is “by the book”, as he should be, when he is PRO. His opinion in this is strictly following procedures and regulations as proscribed by proper authority.
His facts about the Wave history are probably accurate.

However, I believe Rick and Mary were given de facto authority to organize the Waves when HCA or Hobie didn’t feel there was an interest in racing Waves. It really doesn’t matter anyway and I’m sure IWCA will remain vibrant and healthy regardless.

Next, it is also true that I think the way HCA, and probably more accurately Hobie Corporate, have administered the ONE DESIGN aspect that Hobie Alter so passionately embraced, has been less than stellar. The boats do vary enough that you have to somehow get the right combination of sails and bits to optimize your equipment. Sails are a big variable, and you really don’t have much say in what you get. With no published plan there is no way to really even tell, just the Hobie Cat patch.

Now, I think there is an ethical if not procedural question about changing the NOR after it has been posted. In particular, when such a long period has transpired, it is hard to justify a major change in the policy. Folks have made plans and a dealer has made a substantial financial and logistic commitment. I would say that the change in policy is damaging and disheartening to all concerned. I see no winners in this scenario.

Though not a Wave sailor, I could be. I think all of us on this forum have become aware and appreciative of the Wave happenings and they deserve more respect, especially from their manufacturer.

To all:

NORs can and do change. It is far enough in advance of the event, that it is fair.

Now, if you were planning to come, are you really going to stay home just because of your sails? What does that say about YOU?

All this discussion about sail cutting is a joke. When I look at the results of major events with 100% supplied boats vs. BYOB, a funny thing happens... all the really good sailors find a way to win under both formats.

If you're really interested in growing the sport, show up and race.

Mike

Any chance of getting Hobie to charter sails to folks that don't have a stock Hobie sail but were planning to attend? Might not be ideal for all, but maybe some would consider that a reasonable compromise.

sm

I don't know Mary. I'm afraid you'd do a flyby and dump cochi frogs on my house if you got my address.

Come on H1616, pay up the $20 and get the mag like the rest of us do. You can use your real name, and they will not make the connection.

Still waiting for the reply from Jeremy's request for names of noshows, due to the NOR change. Good example of "put up or shut up".

Caleb Tarleton
two H-17's
plus six Waves and six H-16's at Sail Sand Point, all Class Legal

As I'm probably the only cat sailor in West Maui it wouldn't take Mary too long to make the connection.

I've still got the $500 waiting for Nothing But Nets.

Can you say public relations disaster ??

I'm reminded of the worst advertising slogan of all time,

"Nothing Sux like an Electrolux"

That having been said, Hobie Cat Company could have required that charter boats be used with all the factory supplied equipment and been well within their rights as the manufacturer/supplier.
Who could you rent a car from that would let you swap in your own engine for the weekend?
( Kind of apples and oranges I know, but hopefully you catch my drift)

If which sail someone used was that big an issue to someone, they could bring their own boat rather than take advantage of the convenience of a charter boat.

IHCA could have given a one time pass on using the IWCA rules.
If necessary, the event organizer could have scored the waves in two fleets if the non factory sails were that big of an issue.

To make the change after the NOR had been published and the waves invited to participate with the understanding that IWCA rules would be used is kind of like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube.

Obviously hard feelings and negative publicity are the net result.

Cut me I bleed Hobie, and it hurts me to see the company alienate a whole group of sailors.

The company has made it clear by their actions that the are much more focused on the recreational market i.e. sales of yaks and rotomolded boat sales to rental outfits and resorts.

I for one think the company and the HCA-NA are too intimate.

HCA-NA needs to stand on its own two feet and run its own business.
If necessary, we need to buy our soul back from the company store.

The Hobie Cat Company makes decisions based on what is in their best interest as a business.
Hobie Class Association of North America needs to do the same.

Stephen C