| Re: What's in a 20?
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#182978 06/25/09 09:03 AM 06/25/09 09:03 AM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp
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Posts: 5,525 | Mostly, but shouldn't a 20 footer do a little more? I don't want it to do more than what I want at the expense of doing everything else marginally. Like your example above.... 11 knots on a reach? Please! Thats like a getaway. 11 knots at 700 lbs, all kinds of crap on board, and absolutely stable. Also, it's $4k boat! It's the concept I'm offering for discussion, not the Tiki itself.
Last edited by pgp; 06/25/09 09:04 AM.
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: What's in a 20?
[Re: WindyHillF20]
#182979 06/25/09 09:04 AM 06/25/09 09:04 AM |
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine ThunderMuffin
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Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine | I dont believe the N20 does it all for those who want 20 footers. What does it not do? And I don't really think the N20 can be referred to as economical at this point. Did you see the Nacra 20 Class Director up there saying one can be purchased for ~$20k which is slightly above what an F18 goes for new? | | | Re: What's in a 20?
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#182980 06/25/09 09:07 AM 06/25/09 09:07 AM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp
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Posts: 5,525 | "What does it not do?" Provide dry storage and shelter.
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: What's in a 20?
[Re: pgp]
#182982 06/25/09 09:12 AM 06/25/09 09:12 AM |
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine ThunderMuffin
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Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine | Provide dry storage and shelter. WHY do you need that on a 20 footer? It would only add weight, decrease performance, and be overall just another Hobie 21 SC. The biggest problem that the 20 footers have are the F18's. They have been siphoning off our fleets for years now, and when new people want to step into the high performance racing scene, the F18 gets the nod over the 20 simply due to the number of racers. Whats needed for a 20 footer to differentiate itself from the F18's? A cabin, stove, and a damn outboard isn't going to do that. If you want a 20 footer that does that... then get a Hobie 21 SC. There are already boats on the market that fulfill that cruising niche. | | | Re: What's in a 20?
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#182983 06/25/09 09:17 AM 06/25/09 09:17 AM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp
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Posts: 5,525 | You don't need an engine. But if you're becalmed in Florida Bay, it comes in handy. Don't ask me how I know. The other stuff becomes desirable if you want to extend your range. I'm pretty sure that H16s have sailed to Dry Tortuga and camped. They, of course, started the Worrell. However, that's a little too daring for me. If I'm out of sight of land, I'd like to have a weeks worth of food and water.
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: What's in a 20?
[Re: pgp]
#182984 06/25/09 09:17 AM 06/25/09 09:17 AM |
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 4,451 West coast of Norway Rolf_Nilsen
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Posts: 4,451 West coast of Norway | Actually I dont think Mini asked about markets at all, but what "we" on catsailor thought the boat should be like. What makes something sell? Marketing is what make sales. I agree fully that the F18 class today is dominating the beachcat market. I also believe that there is room for a 20 footer formula class besides the former olympic piece of athletic equipment. What does the N20 not do? Since it never catched on big time something is lacking. Probably nothing technical but more positioning and marketing I would say. Remember that my viewpoint is not within the east coast of the US. If I lived on one of the coasts of the US the N20 would be a very good alternative. Now, if there was somebody asking you about what you wanted in a 20 foot beachcat, why not tell him what you want in addition to the "doom and gloom" of any new class in the beachcat market | | | Re: What's in a 20?
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#182985 06/25/09 09:28 AM 06/25/09 09:28 AM |
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 263 SC zander
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Posts: 263 SC | Instead of what the 20 does not do I think the focus should be on what a 20 does do. It give big a** people like me a platform where I can "potentially" be competitive. at 215 pounds (down from 235) I can not be comptetitve on an F18, ask Jake we tried. You want to pump up the 20's build one out of carbon.
Without a 20 class right now, I'm on the photo boat.
Always borrow money from a pessimist. He won't expect it back.
| | | Re: What's in a 20?
[Re: pgp]
#182986 06/25/09 09:28 AM 06/25/09 09:28 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | And what about all the Tornados out there? What would they have to do to "fit" into a F20 rule? They are what, 19 feet long, so they are not too long to fit, but they are too wide if you go with the 8'6" USA trailering rules.
So do you allow them the added beam due to the shorter hulls, or make them buy an new set of beams and alter their tramps?
I'm all for a big boy boat, but not too many can afford anything over $20,000. That seems to be the big stopping point when it comes to buying "toys", and that's for single guys!
Us "married with kids" types have a much shorter stopping point!
If Mamma ain't happy, nobody's happy! Right Gina?
PS, when I had my Inter 20, I LOVED it! It would still be my number 1 choice if I had regular crew. Alex and Patsy proved you don't need two monster sized men on the boat to win in big air. And look at Nigel and Alex, neither one are huge guys, yet they always do well on it.
Why a lot of teams got off their Inter 20's to go to the F18 is still a mystery to me.
And for Rolf, I believe the real reason the I20 didn't catch on in Europe like it did in the USA is because the average wind strength in most sailing locations over there is quite a bit more than the average over here.
The F18 was built for your wind, the I20 was designed for our wind.
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: What's in a 20?
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#182988 06/25/09 09:34 AM 06/25/09 09:34 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Now, if there was somebody asking you about what you wanted in a 20 foot beachcat, why not tell him what you want in addition to the "doom and gloom" of any new class in the beachcat market A Nacra 20 with a raised rear cross beam (ala Infusion), a current sail plan (ala Tornado/F-18) and LIGHT ,tough,tuneable, CARBON mast. That'd about do it for me. The N-20 carries weight great, we just finished the Great Texas weighing in at 466 lbs. ,try that on just about any other beach cat. Tawd
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: What's in a 20?
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#182992 06/25/09 09:52 AM 06/25/09 09:52 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California John Williams
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Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California | The biggest problem that the 20 footers have are the F18's. They have been siphoning off our fleets for years now, and when new people want to step into the high performance racing scene, the F18 gets the nod over the 20 simply due to the number of racers. Ah, Thaddeus... this is where we part ways. The 20 fleet is a dick forest. Two big guys. I raced in the 20 class when it was new, but lost my ride as the realization that minimum weight wasn't enough disseminated through the ranks. All the power and none of the chicks is what sent me to the F18 - it certainly wasn't the numbers, because when I switched there weren't many around. The F18 class isn't to "blame" for the 20's decline.
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get - Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
| | | Re: What's in a 20?
[Re: John Williams]
#182993 06/25/09 09:56 AM 06/25/09 09:56 AM |
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine ThunderMuffin
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Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine | he 20 fleet is a dick forest. My wife and Holly would beg to differ with you. Blaming the 20's decline on the lack of women sailors is a red herring. The REASON the F18 drew the 20 sailors away is because it was more suited towards a specific weight range, which included women sailors. Thus we get back to my original point. More sailors in F18's = more draw for people coming into the game. | | | Re: What's in a 20?
[Re: John Williams]
#182994 06/25/09 10:02 AM 06/25/09 10:02 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | The biggest problem that the 20 footers have are the F18's. They have been siphoning off our fleets for years now, and when new people want to step into the high performance racing scene, the F18 gets the nod over the 20 simply due to the number of racers. Ah, Thaddeus... this is where we part ways. The 20 fleet is a dick forest. Two big guys. I raced in the 20 class when it was new, but lost my ride as the realization that minimum weight wasn't enough disseminated through the ranks. All the power and none of the chicks is what sent me to the F18 - it certainly wasn't the numbers, because when I switched there weren't many around. The F18 class isn't to "blame" for the 20's decline. JW,Your so Guido! And to think I used to think you were light in your loafers. Plenty of girls on the beach,If your looking for eye candy. If I could find my own Holly,Sue, or Sandra to race with then I'd love to,but if it takes 2 guys to make a N-20 go fast, then that's what runs the boat. I'm not going to be less competitive(weight) so I can sail with a lady, if she can't handle the strings on a 20( which is what you imply in your post). Tawd
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: What's in a 20?
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#182995 06/25/09 10:07 AM 06/25/09 10:07 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California John Williams
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Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California | Red herring? 2007 results, 20 Nationals. 35 men, one woman. Anyone got the 2008 results?
Good onya, Hol, but to say that there are just as many women in the 20 fleet as other fleets is not true. I'm not blaming women for the decline of the 20 class. I'm telling you that was one reason I left.
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get - Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
| | | Re: What's in a 20?
[Re: John Williams]
#182996 06/25/09 10:13 AM 06/25/09 10:13 AM |
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine ThunderMuffin
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Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine | Red herring? 2007 results, 20 Nationals. 35 men, one woman. Anyone got the 2008 results? its a Red Herring because its not the reason why the class is "in decline" by your own admission. | | | Re: What's in a 20?
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#182997 06/25/09 10:15 AM 06/25/09 10:15 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California John Williams
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Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California | If I could find my own Holly,Sue, or Sandra to race with then I'd love to,but if it takes 2 guys to make a N-20 go fast, then that's what runs the boat. I'm not going to be less competitive(weight) so I can sail with a lady, if she can't handle the strings on a 20( which is what you imply in your post). Tawd And there's nothing wrong with that - you're being honest about what it takes to race that particular boat. I am not suggesting that you change a thing - I was merely stating that it was more of a gender and weight thing that sent me to the F18, not a numbers thing as was being claimed.
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get - Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
| | | Re: What's in a 20?
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#183001 06/25/09 10:25 AM 06/25/09 10:25 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | I thought the reason the I20 "class" declined was because it was never an "owner driven class" in that Nacra kept changing the new boats, regardless of what the owners/class members wanted or approved.
When the F18 class came along, it allowed more flexability for the owners to rig their boats as they wished, use the equipment they chose, vs. what the factory put on the boats.
If there were an "F" 20 class, instead of a factory driven, factory controlled, SMOD I20 class, I think it would do much better, but since the F18 class is already getting traction, mostly from I20 crews downsizing, you are chasing the same sailors, who are allready on their new F18's!
I don't know if you will get them back on a F20 type platform.
On the woman issue? Sure, more is better, but to say a chick can't crew a 20 is BS. She might prefer the 18, but Patsy proved that even a skinny little girl can do it.
Ding, Since you are about the only one active here who's "gone both ways" with a female crew, what does Kathy have to say about the two boats? Does she like the F18 better than the I20?
Did you ever feel disadvantaged on the 20 due to having a woman crew?
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: What's in a 20?
[Re: John Williams]
#183004 06/25/09 10:31 AM 06/25/09 10:31 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | If I could find my own Holly,Sue, or Sandra to race with then I'd love to,but if it takes 2 guys to make a N-20 go fast, then that's what runs the boat. I'm not going to be less competitive(weight) so I can sail with a lady, if she can't handle the strings on a 20( which is what you imply in your post). Tawd And there's nothing wrong with that - you're being honest about what it takes to race that particular boat. I am not suggesting that you change a thing - I was merely stating that it was more of a gender and weight thing that sent me to the F18, not a numbers thing as was being claimed. JW, Weight would obviously be an issue for you, I've got goldfish that weigh more than you. If I thought I could be competitive on an F-18 weight wise ,I'd surely try one out, but it's not possible. With my lightest crew I'd still be in the upper window of being competitive(365-370). I do find the numbers attractive, it'd be hard not to, but until there is only 2 Nacra 20s left, the odds are pretty good I'll be on one of them. Now an Infusion 20 might be enough to make me switch,but don't see it happenin'. Tawd
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: What's in a 20?
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#183006 06/25/09 10:34 AM 06/25/09 10:34 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California John Williams
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Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California | Again, that's fine, Big T. Race on! This thread should be about 20s. It was a mistake to introduce discussion of the F18, IMO, and the primary reason I chimed in this morning.
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get - Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
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