In Europe I don't see the market for a successful 20. Or a F20.

An F18 is doing almost all you need from a big cat. They can go around cans. They can do raids. They do not cost an arm and a leg. A lot of people are sailing one. You don't need a tilt trailer. That's a lot of tickboxes that the F18 checks.

What's missing to the F18 that would warrant a 20 design:

* Maybe, a 20 is better off-shore in deep waves. How much better? Not that much, is it worth the price of yet another class? probably not.

* Who's the target? A 20 is a good refuge for heavy crews, but those big crew are not that common. And there is an easy solution: split the crew, get two F18 and give the tiller to a lightweight...

* A 20 is faster. Granted. But we already have a fast established quick 20 class: the Tornado. It's in decline right now, because without the attraction of the Olympics it is still a big boat hard to trailer around...

So what market is left for a 20? A handful of crews too heavy to be competitive on a 18 and refusing to split. A handful of rich guys building big light overpowered cats to be the first over the line in raids. That's it. In short, not enough to sustain the development costs.

11 knots at 700 lbs, all kinds of crap on board, and absolutely stable. Also, it's $4k boat!

It's the concept I'm offering for discussion, not the Tiki itself.

What does it not do?



Did you see the Nacra 20 Class Director up there saying one can be purchased for ~$20k which is slightly above what an F18 goes for new?

"What does it not do?"
Provide dry storage and shelter.

WHY do you need that on a 20 footer? It would only add weight, decrease performance, and be overall just another Hobie 21 SC.

The biggest problem that the 20 footers have are the F18's. They have been siphoning off our fleets for years now, and when new people want to step into the high performance racing scene, the F18 gets the nod over the 20 simply due to the number of racers.

Whats needed for a 20 footer to differentiate itself from the F18's? A cabin, stove, and a damn outboard isn't going to do that. If you want a 20 footer that does that... then get a Hobie 21 SC. There are already boats on the market that fulfill that cruising niche.

You don't need an engine. But if you're becalmed in Florida Bay, it comes in handy. Don't ask me how I know.

The other stuff becomes desirable if you want to extend your range. I'm pretty sure that H16s have sailed to Dry Tortuga and camped. They, of course, started the Worrell. However, that's a little too daring for me. If I'm out of sight of land, I'd like to have a weeks worth of food and water.

Actually I dont think Mini asked about markets at all, but what "we" on catsailor thought the boat should be like. What makes something sell? Marketing is what make sales. I agree fully that the F18 class today is dominating the beachcat market. I also believe that there is room for a 20 footer formula class besides the former olympic piece of athletic equipment.

What does the N20 not do? Since it never catched on big time something is lacking. Probably nothing technical but more positioning and marketing I would say. Remember that my viewpoint is not within the east coast of the US. If I lived on one of the coasts of the US the N20 would be a very good alternative.

Now, if there was somebody asking you about what you wanted in a 20 foot beachcat, why not tell him what you want in addition to the "doom and gloom" of any new class in the beachcat market

Instead of what the 20 does not do I think the focus should be on what a 20 does do. It give big a** people like me a platform where I can "potentially" be competitive. at 215 pounds (down from 235) I can not be comptetitve on an F18, ask Jake we tried. You want to pump up the 20's build one out of carbon.

Without a 20 class right now, I'm on the photo boat.

And what about all the Tornados out there? What would they have to do to "fit" into a F20 rule? They are what, 19 feet long, so they are not too long to fit, but they are too wide if you go with the 8'6" USA trailering rules.

So do you allow them the added beam due to the shorter hulls, or make them buy an new set of beams and alter their tramps?

I'm all for a big boy boat, but not too many can afford anything over $20,000. That seems to be the big stopping point when it comes to buying "toys", and that's for single guys!

Us "married with kids" types have a much shorter stopping point!

If Mamma ain't happy, nobody's happy! Right Gina?

PS, when I had my Inter 20, I LOVED it! It would still be my number 1 choice if I had regular crew. Alex and Patsy proved you don't need two monster sized men on the boat to win in big air. And look at Nigel and Alex, neither one are huge guys, yet they always do well on it.

Why a lot of teams got off their Inter 20's to go to the F18 is still a mystery to me.

And for Rolf, I believe the real reason the I20 didn't catch on in Europe like it did in the USA is because the average wind strength in most sailing locations over there is quite a bit more than the average over here.

The F18 was built for your wind, the I20 was designed for our wind.

A Nacra 20 with a raised rear cross beam (ala Infusion), a current sail plan (ala Tornado/F-18) and LIGHT ,tough,tuneable, CARBON mast. That'd about do it for me.
The N-20 carries weight great, we just finished the Great Texas weighing in at 466 lbs. ,try that on just about any other beach cat.

Tawd

Tim,

the Tornado dont have the hull volume to support more weight. In addition many old T's are underbuilt for the new rig (and might not be built to last for the pinhead rig as well). Any old Tornado besides Marstrøms fresher than 86 is a 'maybe'. There are some nice Gougeon and other wood boats, and probably some Sailcraft and Reg Whites worth investing time in but you need to know the boats to find the gems.

Ah, Thaddeus... this is where we part ways. The 20 fleet is a dick forest. Two big guys. I raced in the 20 class when it was new, but lost my ride as the realization that minimum weight wasn't enough disseminated through the ranks. All the power and none of the chicks is what sent me to the F18 - it certainly wasn't the numbers, because when I switched there weren't many around. The F18 class isn't to "blame" for the 20's decline.

My wife and Holly would beg to differ with you. Blaming the 20's decline on the lack of women sailors is a red herring. The REASON the F18 drew the 20 sailors away is because it was more suited towards a specific weight range, which included women sailors.

Thus we get back to my original point. More sailors in F18's = more draw for people coming into the game.

JW,Your so Guido! And to think I used to think you were light in your loafers.
Plenty of girls on the beach,If your looking for eye candy. If I could find my own Holly,Sue, or Sandra to race with then I'd love to,but if it takes 2 guys to make a N-20 go fast, then that's what runs the boat. I'm not going to be less competitive(weight) so I can sail with a lady, if she can't handle the strings on a 20( which is what you imply in your post).
Tawd

Red herring? 2007 results, 20 Nationals. 35 men, one woman. Anyone got the 2008 results?

Good onya, Hol, but to say that there are just as many women in the 20 fleet as other fleets is not true. I'm not blaming women for the decline of the 20 class. I'm telling you that was one reason I left.

its a Red Herring because its not the reason why the class is "in decline" by your own admission.

And there's nothing wrong with that - you're being honest about what it takes to race that particular boat. I am not suggesting that you change a thing - I was merely stating that it was more of a gender and weight thing that sent me to the F18, not a numbers thing as was being claimed.

I thought the reason the I20 "class" declined was because it was never an "owner driven class" in that Nacra kept changing the new boats, regardless of what the owners/class members wanted or approved.

When the F18 class came along, it allowed more flexability for the owners to rig their boats as they wished, use the equipment they chose, vs. what the factory put on the boats.

If there were an "F" 20 class, instead of a factory driven, factory controlled, SMOD I20 class, I think it would do much better, but since the F18 class is already getting traction, mostly from I20 crews downsizing, you are chasing the same sailors, who are allready on their new F18's!

I don't know if you will get them back on a F20 type platform.

On the woman issue? Sure, more is better, but to say a chick can't crew a 20 is BS. She might prefer the 18, but Patsy proved that even a skinny little girl can do it.

Ding, Since you are about the only one active here who's "gone both ways" with a female crew, what does Kathy have to say about the two boats? Does she like the F18 better than the I20?

Did you ever feel disadvantaged on the 20 due to having a woman crew?

JW,
Weight would obviously be an issue for you, I've got goldfish that weigh more than you.
If I thought I could be competitive on an F-18 weight wise ,I'd surely try one out, but it's not possible. With my lightest crew I'd still be in the upper window of being competitive(365-370). I do find the numbers attractive, it'd be hard not to, but until there is only 2 Nacra 20s left, the odds are pretty good I'll be on one of them. Now an Infusion 20 might be enough to make me switch,but don't see it happenin'.
Tawd

Again, that's fine, Big T. Race on! This thread should be about 20s. It was a mistake to introduce discussion of the F18, IMO, and the primary reason I chimed in this morning.