Seeing as the Beaver thread got hijacked I will start another here:

In the past there has been a lot of attempts to get a 20 class of some sort organized. All Formula style attempts have failed because there seems to be no concensus as to what the formula should consist of.

A good number of the boats built historicaly have been bastardized versions of an existing model. This all being done to try and keep costs in control. The I 20 being a scalled I18 with some of the same bits that ended up not working all that well (Rudder for example) AHPC's Viper trying to use all the bits off the Cap. All these work but at some price to parts devloped to fit the real intent of the boat. No one but a select handfull of sailors in the world will be able to tell the difference as the skill level of the weekend warrior (those of us buying their boats) are not such that a few pounds or a slightly less efficient foil will make a difference in our results.

We do however go out and purchase based on perception though. Price, weight, features, styling, builder, results etc. If any builder would come out with a 20 footer they will sell a few. That being the problem beacause it is a lot of work and expensive to make just a few of anything. Marstrom now has 1 but they are relatively expensive and I have yet to see more than 2 rigged the same. I am sure the Shuerer boat will be exceptionaly done based on what I saw of their A, yet the majority of comments on the other thread were devoted to pointing out percieved defficiencies of a rendering.

Recognizing most features are mutualy exclusive what items are most important in choosing a new boat? Looking at a performance boat - not a Hobie Sport Cruiser - and as someone else pointed out cat sailing is currently the least expensve place you can go to get into high end performance for any vehicle sport; so those of you who put down price as your first concern, please do not include weight, performance, or features/components in the same list.

Here are few that come to mind but feel free to add

Weight
Designed use (Rough off shore or inshore)
Sail area/ Power
Rigging (simple, or adjustable)
Open design Formula or 1 design
If open how open
Beam
Materials used, or unrestricted
Sail configuration
Sail makers
Styling
Inovation

I like a boat that offers good performance (fast, which likely includes a spinnaker), is double-handed and requires a high degree of teamwork. I don't like a boat that is designed to the edges of the envelope for marginal performance gain, or is designed for too narrow a performance band (e.g., don't try and sail it in under five or over fifteen knots), or even designed with only buoy racing (i.e., windward/leeward) in mind.

How WIDE will you accept?

Guys,

I think this is a moot point since there it already a dominant 20 class in the US that, as we have discussed already, is priced competitively visa-vis the 18 footers.

The Nacra 20 fits every single requirement I have of a boat. Would I like it to be lighter? Maybe. When I'm dragging it around the beach, sure I'd like it to be lighter, but I don't know what kind of performance change it would result in and whether I'd like it when I was *sailing* the boat.

Tad, you'll note that I described the N20.

Mr. Water Squirrel

Noted sir

Well, you know, NACRA products and their feasibility depends a bit on exchange rates. The topic is certainly interesting for those not living in the good ol' USA.

I definately think a 20 footer should be done within the scope of a formula class. That is the only way I think it could be done with success today.
I think the boat should be sloop rigged with spi and double trapeze. Width limited to max trailering width to make it easier on those not having mast up storage (requisite in the US and australian market I understand). I would want the boat suitable for both bouyo racing and distance racing with not too much sailarea so it could be sailed in strong wind areas as well.

With the F18 being as numerous as it is and lacking the versatility of the F16 (uni/two up) I think it will be a tough sell. There is probably quite a number of sailors who wants a 20 footer becouse $(insert reason here), but how to get them off the fence and how to bring new people to the boat.. Only hope I see is somebody doing a couple of boats and starting a true 20 foot formula class with homebuilds.

8' beam, with wings, small ****/cabin in hulls, dedicated engine mount. Primarily to be launched from a ramp, able to take occasional groundings.

Yes, that's an optimized version of Tiki 21; which is 21 x 12, weighs 700 lbs. and will do an honest 11knots on a reach.

Yeees.. Well, personally I had something with a bit more performance and less creature comforts in mind

That's called a Tornado. But let's look at performance. If you peel away some of Tiki's 700 lbs and add a more powerful rig, then what? You have the approximate perfomance of an H16, on a reach, enhanced by the improved downwind performance of a modern spinnaker. Plus the utility of an occasional overnight.

Don't let the "cabin" throw you. I'm just thinking of something with about as much room as a pup tent.

Not anymore I would say. Today a "Tornado" is a super expensive S-glass autoclaved monster from Sweden. The original Tornado was like that, but not anymore. Back to the original idea behind the Tornado, yes, but in a formula ruleset.

This topic has been hashed, rehashed, and beaten over and over again.

Yet when it comes down to brass tacks, no new 20 footer emerges in the open market because there is already an economical, high performance, versatile 20 footer on the market.

The N20 has the limitation of being a beach cat. I'm really thinking about something that could reasonably do the Tybee non-stop. Or, my favorite "personal fantasy" race. Tortuga and back.

You could give it a test sail at Hiram's Haul. You'd have to leave it on the hook Saturday night though. The start and finish is at a public park with a proper ramp.

Isn't beach cats what we are talking about?

Mostly, but shouldn't a 20 footer do a little more?

"You could give it a test sail at Hiram's Haul. You'd have to leave it on the hook Saturday night though. The start and finish is at a public park with a proper ramp."

The Tiki is too slow for any kind of catamaran racing as we know it. It's also a major pita to rig up and down. It does, however, make a very nice coastal cruiser.

The real question is how many new N20 have been sold in the past few years and raced vs how many existing boats have been purchased and raced. If I'm not mistaken all but Treys boat in the Velocity fleet were purchased used. What did that do to induce Nacra to develop the platform? Even the N20 will be discontinued in time if new boats are not purchased, just like the Miracle 20, TheMightyHobie18, H17, H14, etc, etc, etc.

I don't want it to do more than what I want at the expense of doing everything else marginally.

Like your example above.... 11 knots on a reach? Please! Thats like a getaway.

First part, yes, I agree. Doesn't hurt to go over it again I think?

Second part. I dont know. I dont believe the N20 does it all for those who want 20 footers. If/when the right mix of people get involved, the magic thing suddenly happens and you sit there with a new class.. I have no idea who Mini is. Perhaps he is part of that magic mix of initative, skills and connections it takes?

And I don't really think the N20 can be referred to as economical at this point.