| |  Re: Safety Quiz
[Re: pgp]
#183882
07/01/09 03:57 PM 07/01/09 03:57 PM |
andrewscott
Unregistered
| andrewscott
Unregistered
| the only time it happened to me (almost unable to get onboard) i was fighting to right it in fast waves (just outside the sand key pass, which gets crazy) and very strong current.
As soon as it was righted the jib filled with air and took off. i had to pull myself up about 20' of mainsheet.. get up front (while its goin 10-15) and get up her.... I was so exhausted... i almost couldn't. I THINK i did end up FEET FIRST.
As soon as i was on board i found out that my main was wrapped around my rudders/travler there was no turing nor uncleating untill it was un-tied.
There was no amount of "going to the gym" that can prepare you for that... i am actually in good shape (from sailing 3 days a week for years).... but i did learn many things that day... | | | Re: Safety Quiz
[Re: brucat]
#183883
07/01/09 03:59 PM 07/01/09 03:59 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... TeamChums 
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... | Ok,
Here's what happened in the GT300 this year with Todd Hart and myself. Day two; Todd was driving (I promised him he could steer that day and he was all happy)and we were beam reaching in about 20 to 25 knots and some good chop. We had overtaken Steve Piche and they were about 200 or so yards to our leward and behind. They stopped. This was about mid way into the leg. There are NO places for your ground crew to come get you at this point. We hailed them on the radio and got no response. Funny since Steve was so adament about us keeping our radios on during the race (another story). We came in off the wire and turned to go back to see if they needed assistance. We waited for them to get back underway and we did the same. Todd got back on the wire and I was still on the side of the boat when I heard a loud bang! The boat started to go over before I could release the main. I was trying to throw my weight over the side to get the hull down but it was too late. I lost my grip and pinballed off the boom then the leward daggerboard. I thought I broke my pelvis at first the way I landed on it. It was pretty painfull. I looked back to see Todd about 40 feet behind me and the boat and swimming like hell. I grabbed the mainsheet blocks and was trying to swim towards him to slow the boat. Wind was blowing too much. Waaaay too much. I ditched that plan and went to getting the boat ready to right. I figured at worst case, I would drift it to the beach through the surf and waite for Todd to swim to shore. I pointed the mast into the waves and water and hooked the righting line in my spreader hook and through myself backwards. Nothing. I waited for a good wave to get under the mast and forcefully through myself back many times and finally the mast started comming up. As it did, I climed hand over hand up the righting line pulling the boat down on me. The boat took off for a while with me being dragged underneath still hooked onto the righting line. I figured it would go into irons soon. It did. I quickly pulled myself on board and couldn't find Todd in the rough seas. Piche picked him up and we sailed next to each other and Todd jumped back on with me. What a fun day. If you find yourself too tired to get back onto your boat after righting it, GET TO THE F'N GYM! The life you save could be your own.
Lee
Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
| | | Re: Safety Quiz
[Re: brucat]
#183890
07/01/09 04:35 PM 07/01/09 04:35 PM |
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA dave mosley
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA | You could permanently tie that "ladder knot" into your righting line at the perfect length so it will be there when you need it. Why didnt I think of that before now?
Yes, its best to be in the gym, but I have been so tired from sailing hard on day 3 of a regatta that after I swam a long way to catch my boat, my strength was zapped. Thanks to the Tradewinds RC for pulling me up and giving me some water and a rest!
The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27
| | | Re: Safety Quiz
[Re: brucat]
#183892
07/01/09 04:42 PM 07/01/09 04:42 PM |
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525 pgp
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
| I've thought about this a lot. First the loop is a great idea, but doing it AFTER it hits the fan is no good, I was just dragged under the boat. Having some such device attached to the spin pole is probably a better choice. I will do that as a certainty before any distance sailing. Also, I'm thinking about a long coil of line to trail behind the boat in survival conditions.
Lee, same story but lots and lots of people and boats to help out. My point is this stuff happens a lot, be prepared.
Last edited by pgp; 07/01/09 04:44 PM.
Pete Pollard
Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: Safety Quiz
[Re: brucat]
#183893
07/01/09 04:46 PM 07/01/09 04:46 PM |
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 606
League City, TX flumpmaster
addict
|
addict
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 606
League City, TX | I've never tried this, but I know people that swear by it.
If you're too tired to pull yourself up with upper body strength, use your legs (and hands and brains)...
Take one of the sheets, and tie a large loop in it (like 2 or more feet across). Tie this to the crossbar, and use it like a ladder step. Basically, you're making a foothold so you can use your (much) stronger leg muscles to get up onto the boat.
Hope this helps.
Mike I duck under the hull, grab the trap handle, heel hook the hull an haul up - minimal effort. I locate my feet either side of the dagger board to stay positively located vs. the boat as I duck under the hull. If you make sure your main sheet is not hooked around your rudders and you don't have the main sheet and traveller all the way out then the boat won't tend to take off when it is righted. Trying to mount an F-18 from the front cross bar is just hard work. You can do it but it burns more energy then getting on from the side. For bonus points, push your crew onto the lower hull while the boat is coming over - that way they are already on board and stowing the righting line while you climb on the side. Chris. | | | Re: Safety Quiz
[Re: flumpmaster]
#183895
07/01/09 04:50 PM 07/01/09 04:50 PM |
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525 pgp
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
| "Trying to mount an F-18 from the front cross bar is just hard work. You can do it but it burns more energy then getting on from the side." But there's nothing to hold on to until you have the trap handle in hand. For me, that's really, really scarey!  I'd much rather stay between the hulls if I can. Going "outside", for me, is a last resort.
Pete Pollard
Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: Safety Quiz
[Re: brucat]
#183896
07/01/09 04:51 PM 07/01/09 04:51 PM |
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay Luiz
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay | Yikes. Glad everything turned out OK.
The advice about the loop was just that, advice. One more idea to have in your back pocket. When the S hits the fan, it's always good to have options. Some people acutally make loops and tie them to the dolphin striker so they are always ready to go. I have used the improvised ladder many times in monohull racers with no ladder. A good resource to keep in mind.
Luiz
| | | Re: Safety Quiz
[Re: Luiz]
#183905
07/01/09 06:14 PM 07/01/09 06:14 PM |
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA SurfCityRacing OP
old hand
|
OP
old hand
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA | Another thing I see a lot on the race course is when a boat pitches, and the crew rights it, the stronger crew usually scrambles back aboard and starts getting the boat ready to race again while the crew is still trying to pull themselves aboard. (And it's usually the dude's wife/ GF left in the water--bad form. You know you'll be hearing about it for at least the next few legs and probably at the regatta party and into the next day.) For crissake pull your FN crew aboard! Grab their life jacket or harness strap and yank, THEN start racing.  I hope a ton of n00bs are reading this thread. A lot of good info. J | | | Re: Safety Quiz
[Re: pgp]
#183926
07/01/09 10:11 PM 07/01/09 10:11 PM |
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn Karl_Brogger
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn | I'd much rather stay between the hulls if I can. I totally agree with you Pete, singlehanded is a different story I think, and certain precautions should be taken. I've only lost my boat once, and that was really scary even though it was in the middle of a regular buoy regatta. I swam like a bastard for about 30 seconds and realized there was no fricken chance I was going to catch it in 15mph winds. The whole time I kept thinking, TURTLE!! TURTLE!!! come on you SOB TURTLE!!!!!. It also made me realize that a whistle is a very important piece of equipment when singlehanded and I really wished I had one at the time. That reminds me, I still need to go buy that whistle. | | | Re: Safety Quiz
[Re: Karl_Brogger]
#183930
07/01/09 10:53 PM 07/01/09 10:53 PM |
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA dacarls
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA | For those of you with a damaged shoulder or 2, or poor upper body strength, or on a tall cat with front crossbar too high for you to climb up: Walk quickly hand over hand underneath to the rear crossbar, get inside the tiller crossbar. Now while ON YOUR STOMACH (face down) hook your STRONGEST leg onto the aft hull while GRABBING onto something on TOP of the tramp with the closest & strongest arm (tramp hiking strap, tramp attachment lines etc). This way your elbow is UP, and you can lever/press your body up with the leg, while pulling strongly to get your chest out of the water.
NOTE: Trying this on your back, means to pull yourself up with your lower leg up on the deck, and the arm elbow-down over the rear crossbar. This does not work, since arms do not bend that way = no strength.
Try this face-down method- to save energy. Even the porkers/oinkers can usually do it.
Also at the back of the boat, you can physically turn the rudders to head the rig into the wind. (Try to do that from the front crossbar- HA!)
Dacarls:
A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16
"Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
| | | Re: Safety Quiz
[Re: TeamChums]
#183931
07/01/09 11:48 PM 07/01/09 11:48 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina | Ok,
Here's what happened in the GT300 this year with Todd Hart and myself. Day two; Todd was driving (I promised him he could steer that day and he was all happy)and we were beam reaching in about 20 to 25 knots and some good chop. We had overtaken Steve Piche and they were about 200 or so yards to our leward and behind. They stopped. This was about mid way into the leg. There are NO places for your ground crew to come get you at this point. We hailed them on the radio and got no response. Funny since Steve was so adament about us keeping our radios on during the race (another story). We came in off the wire and turned to go back to see if they needed assistance. We waited for them to get back underway and we did the same. Todd got back on the wire and I was still on the side of the boat when I heard a loud bang! The boat started to go over before I could release the main. I was trying to throw my weight over the side to get the hull down but it was too late. I lost my grip and pinballed off the boom then the leward daggerboard. I thought I broke my pelvis at first the way I landed on it. It was pretty painfull. I looked back to see Todd about 40 feet behind me and the boat and swimming like hell. I grabbed the mainsheet blocks and was trying to swim towards him to slow the boat. Wind was blowing too much. Waaaay too much. I ditched that plan and went to getting the boat ready to right. I figured at worst case, I would drift it to the beach through the surf and waite for Todd to swim to shore. I pointed the mast into the waves and water and hooked the righting line in my spreader hook and through myself backwards. Nothing. I waited for a good wave to get under the mast and forcefully through myself back many times and finally the mast started comming up. As it did, I climed hand over hand up the righting line pulling the boat down on me. The boat took off for a while with me being dragged underneath still hooked onto the righting line. I figured it would go into irons soon. It did. I quickly pulled myself on board and couldn't find Todd in the rough seas. Piche picked him up and we sailed next to each other and Todd jumped back on with me. What a fun day. If you find yourself too tired to get back onto your boat after righting it, GET TO THE F'N GYM! The life you save could be your own. first - great story...great ending. so what was the "bang!"? Was it Todd's disproportionate body hitting the water or did the trap line get a peek at his toes and die?
Jake Kohl
| | |  Re: Safety Quiz
[Re: Jake]
#183933
07/02/09 12:37 AM 07/02/09 12:37 AM |
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA H17cat
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA | At Sail Sand Point in Seattle, mandatory first day drill for ALL classes, Opti, FJ, Wave, H-16 etc. Jump off the pier, swim 75ft to your PFD, put on the PFD. Turn over the boat used in your class, then right it. Swim back to pier with your PFD on. After several years finally got our Hobie 101 Classes to do the same thing.
This is also a requirement for anyone being checked out for using the boat in "Open Sailing".
Caleb Tarleton | | | Re: Safety Quiz
[Re: Jake]
#183943
07/02/09 08:13 AM 07/02/09 08:13 AM |
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... TeamChums
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... | The bang was his adjustable trap set up breaking (he insisted on changing it to his own). Sorry Todd, I had to say it I think he twisted line when he got back on the wire. I noticed him do it again on another day and pointed it out. It would make the line twist over a somewhat sharp part of the cleat. The whole situation could have been avoided (we feel) if the other team had answered us on the radio. They said they could hear us but were too busy. This whole subject has given myself and a few others some good thoughts to ponder and I look back on all the times I sailed out of Ventura Harbor without a radio. A radio is CHEAP insurance. They are small enough that I'll be carrying one from now on when sailing in the ocean and especially when I'm the only sail boat on the water. BTW, my life jacket has a strobe with good batteries and I have a pack of flares in the trampoline pocket. Whistles? I think they're usless, unless you want to go deaf while waiting for someone to spot you.
Lee
Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
| | | Re: Safety Quiz
[Re: SurfCityRacing]
#183949
07/02/09 08:37 AM 07/02/09 08:37 AM |
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 235 JJ_
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 235
| This problem of the tramp acting as a sail still?! This is a real problem with catamarans that has never been addressed, IMO. I don't care how good you are at boat-righting techniques if the boat is going bye-bye.
Maybe a righting bag should double as a drogue somehow, as Undecided mentioned?
Maybe tramps should have a quick release?
Maybe some way built in to assist in swimming the boat into the wind?
While these guys made lots of potentially life-threatening mistakes in preparation to sail and in choice of location to sail, the moment of life-threatening crisis didn't start until one person was left swimming while the boat drifted off.
Being tethered to a boat is a dangerous option...
Last edited by JJ_; 07/02/09 08:40 AM.
| | | Re: Safety Quiz
[Re: TeamChums]
#183952
07/02/09 08:54 AM 07/02/09 08:54 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. | The bang was his adjustable trap set up breaking (he insisted on changing it to his own). Sorry Todd, I had to say it I think he twisted line when he got back on the wire. No need to apologize,I've taken the blame for that one since it broke. I just wasn't comfortable with frayed 3/16 spectra on a fixed length dogbone set-up. I think the results would've been the exact same with alot more teabagging( the trap/butt in the water kind, don't get excited hobie1616) in the gulf beforehand.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
| | | Re: Safety Quiz
[Re: JJ_]
#183954
07/02/09 09:13 AM 07/02/09 09:13 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina | This problem of the tramp acting as a sail still?! This is a real problem with catamarans that has never been addressed, IMO. I don't care how good you are at boat-righting techniques if the boat is going bye-bye.
Maybe a righting bag should double as a drogue somehow, as Undecided mentioned?
Maybe tramps should have a quick release?
Maybe some way built in to assist in swimming the boat into the wind?
While these guys made lots of potentially life-threatening mistakes in preparation to sail and in choice of location to sail, the moment of life-threatening crisis didn't start until one person was left swimming while the boat drifted off.
Being tethered to a boat is a dangerous option...
Actually I think I first heard this idea from Bill Roberts and I may have refined the idea slightly. Next time my trampoline is off, we'll be incorporating it into our 20. Basically, put a zipper pocket under the trampoline and have a small drag chute / water anchor in there with some line and a decent carabiner (you can get a weighted/sprung chute with a bridle that will pop open in the water for about $30). If you find yourself capsized and need the system, you unzip the pocket from the underside of the trampoline and pull out the chute, line, and carabiner. One side of the line should remain attached to the trampoline / mast post. With the line feeding through the carabiner, clip it to the forestay bridle on the hull in the water. Toss the drogue off the bow. With it clipped to the forestay bridle, it should quickly spin the boat into the wind and provide some brakes to the boat's progress through the water (though I'm not sure if it would be enough to allow someone to swim back to the boat). Right the boat as normal but now when the boat comes up, the chute will hopefully keep the boat bow to the wind. Once you've got everything sorted out, you just grab the chute line at the front beam and pull it until the chute is lifted out of the water at the carabiner - you can probably leave it there while sailing. This would possibly help if you are A) having trouble getting the boat positinged into the wind for righting or B) had someone get separated from the boat or C) are afraid the boat will take off without you when it's righted (I've been there too and it ain't fun). I think Bill Roberts suggestion involved a similar system but for the bigger boats that are hard to right and once the chute was deployed, you would center the mainsheet traveler and sheet the main in hard - the main would provide more help in righting the boat immediately. The drogue would hopefully keep the boat positioned into the wind and keep it from flip flopping to capsize again.
Jake Kohl
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