| Re: Foiling M20?!
[Re: Hakan Frojdh]
#185547 07/19/09 03:15 PM 07/19/09 03:15 PM |
Joined: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay Luiz
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Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay | This boat needs small symetrical section T or L foils in the rudders. When the main foils lift the bow, the symetrical section rudder foils lift the transom taking the hull out of the water. When the boat assumes a bow down attitude, the symetrical section rudder foils help keep the transom in the water.
Luiz
| | | Re: Foiling M20?!
[Re: Hakan Frojdh]
#185563 07/19/09 09:01 PM 07/19/09 09:01 PM |
Joined: Jul 2002 Posts: 539 taipanfc
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Posts: 539 | We had an A-cat regatta this week end at Marstrom and guess what....a M20 with curved daggerboards! These boards have more lifting capabilities than the A-class rules allow and at 17-18 knots with the boards fully down it lifts the boat completely from the water. That is not good since it jumps out of the water quite violently and sometimes threws the crew in the water. The boards where longer than they are in the picture but then it started to do the "thing" at 16 knots. When they sail upwind with this only parts of the hull are in the water and that enough to balance the boat, so it is a kind of "semi foiling". It's hard to tell how much foiling you want to get the best performance. The boards are level with the bottom of the hull in the picture. /hakan Definitely need to be able to balance the boat so it is parallel to the water when foiling. Means adjustable AOA on the centreboards. Max lift when not foiling, and less lift when foiling as the increased speed keeps the boat up and out of the water. Deeper rudders are necessary to ensure you can still steer and these don't ventilate by the hull rising up. T or L on the bottom means they act similar to the tail on the plane by ensuring the pitch of the boat is kept into line and you should be able to adjust this angle. Moths lift at 7-8 knots of breeze, so more development can be done to bring this down on the M20. A huge amount of drag to have in conditions when not foiling. | | | Re: Foiling M20?!
[Re: Robi]
#185570 07/19/09 11:21 PM 07/19/09 11:21 PM |
Joined: Jul 2002 Posts: 539 taipanfc
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Posts: 539 | Maybe they are first developing lifting boards then work on the rudders, makes sense to me. Get the boat to lift off then control the attitude, one step at a time. This could be awesome. Maybe, but you do a lot of damage along the way. If the main foils lift, and then ventilate at speed (ie instantly loss all lift), then the whole nosedive is a helluva lot quicker. Mainly because the hulls are pointing downwards and then hit the water. Done that many many many times on the moth. The whole nosedive cartwheel experience a lot quicker than i have ever experienced on a cat. | | | Re: Foiling M20?!
[Re: taipanfc]
#185582 07/20/09 08:30 AM 07/20/09 08:30 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | I was under the impression the curved boards were not at all designed intended for full on foiling, rather for a smaller amount of lift to keep it from pitch polling going downwind?
There was a discussion about these curved boards some months ago on the A Cat Forum. I thought they said it was about stability and lift going downwind, not full foiling.
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: Foiling M20?!
[Re: Timbo]
#185583 07/20/09 08:38 AM 07/20/09 08:38 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 733 Home is where the harness is..... Will_R
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Posts: 733 Home is where the harness is..... | I was under the impression the curved boards were not at all designed intended for full on foiling, rather for a smaller amount of lift to keep it from pitch polling going downwind?
There was a discussion about these curved boards some months ago on the A Cat Forum. I thought they said it was about stability and lift going downwind, not full foiling. I can't say for sure, but the boards on the A's, M20 and CFR type boats are WELL aft of a boat like the N20. I can't see them adding any lift to the bows. | | | Re: Foiling M20?!
[Re: Will_R]
#185587 07/20/09 09:58 AM 07/20/09 09:58 AM |
Joined: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay Luiz
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Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay | I was under the impression the curved boards were not at all designed intended for full on foiling, rather for a smaller amount of lift to keep it from pitch polling going downwind?
There was a discussion about these curved boards some months ago on the A Cat Forum. I thought they said it was about stability and lift going downwind, not full foiling. I can't say for sure, but the boards on the A's, M20 and CFR type boats are WELL aft of a boat like the N20. I can't see them adding any lift to the bows. If the goal is fore and aft stability, the foils should be placed forward of the main beam/mast and the rudder should be deeper. I would have chosen the ARC 20 configuration for experiments, with larger beams, overpowered and in carbon, if possible.
Luiz
| | | Re: Foiling M20?!
[Re: Hakan Frojdh]
#185657 07/21/09 05:30 AM 07/21/09 05:30 AM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,253 Columbia South Carolina, USA dave mosley
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Posts: 1,253 Columbia South Carolina, USA | Was this just a test, or do they plan on developing these new and longer boards. Im all for curved boards, but not ones with this much "performance enhancing" ability. While we are at it, lets do some blood doping too!
The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27
| | | Re: Foiling M20?!
[Re: dave mosley]
#185658 07/21/09 05:56 AM 07/21/09 05:56 AM |
Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 976 France pepin
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Posts: 976 France | Was this just a test, or do they plan on developing these new and longer boards. Im all for curved boards, but not ones with this much "performance enhancing" ability. While we are at it, lets do some blood doping too! I don't understand your point there. I want development of new systems, rigs, daggerboard, sail, anything that can make our boats go faster. I don't see the relationship between this and doping. At all. One is development, the other is cheating. And frankly if in 5 years we have a foiling cat class I'll probably start thinking about migrating to it. I hope to get an existing class to allow foiling first, but given the current restrictions on curved boards in the F16 and A class I'm less than hopeful on that front, both blew it by changing their box rules to effectively end any attempt at foiling. Foiling is awesome. I've been a passenger on a trifoiler once and that thing was a hoot. I watch the foiling moth with envy, but I know I'm too heavy for those, and I don't like the idea of spending my sailing sessions swimming. So I'm eagerly awaiting for someone to build a foiling cat for a reasonable cost we can create a class of. | | | Re: Foiling M20?!
[Re: Tornado_ALIVE]
#185661 07/21/09 06:53 AM 07/21/09 06:53 AM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,253 Columbia South Carolina, USA dave mosley
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Posts: 1,253 Columbia South Carolina, USA | Pepin, not sure if you have followed the A Class vote a couple months ago, but there were some serious restrictions about length and other constraints. Im not saying that foiling is cheating, but its gone a bit beyond the premise of the curved boards intent(at least for the A Class) If you want to foil, put some of those babies on your 5.2 and start your own class, but dont bring them into the A Class, we want something more "traditional".
The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27
| | | Re: Foiling M20?!
[Re: Tornado_ALIVE]
#185663 07/21/09 07:03 AM 07/21/09 07:03 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | Wow, looking at that C class cat pictured above, it is amazing to me that one skinny little board can cause that much lift, to lift the entire boat out of the water!
Are we sure there wasn't some other factor, like a puff just died while they were going fast, and they T bagged and that caused the lee hull to jump up so high?
What does a C class cat weigh these days?
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: Foiling M20?!
[Re: Timbo]
#185664 07/21/09 07:06 AM 07/21/09 07:06 AM |
Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,669 Melbourne, Australia Tornado_ALIVE
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Posts: 1,669 Melbourne, Australia | After a few runs we had her up to 25 knots according to the tender following us with the GPS system. Sorry no pics on that so I guess it didn't happen. We find when we do go that fast the whole leeward hull lifts up about 6" and the boat is really cooking. As such we decide we really kind of like what the boards are doing for us. Conditions were described by Fred as "Spicy" and indeed they were about to get hot.
Once more back across the harbor, the boat is hauling butt when we get hit by a good sharp puff. All of a sudden the bows start to lift up as I ease the sheet, a lot, then while running forward as I look directly to leeward and I see the lee hull angle upwards to about 30 degrees, wherein the banana boards kicked into overdrive and the whole leeward hull flew up about 10 feet out of the water while we were doing 20 plus knots. At this point according to the guys in the tender, the entire boats was clear of the water launching up into the air for a brief moment.
Seconds later Fred and I hit the water and start getting tossed about as the boat teeters on the edge of total disaster, both of us waiting for the wing to land on our heads, skating along with the boat heeled to weather, we were fucked for sure. "How in hell do you dump a C-class to windward?" was all I could think.
| | | Re: Foiling M20?!
[Re: dave mosley]
#185670 07/21/09 07:40 AM 07/21/09 07:40 AM |
Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 976 France pepin
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Posts: 976 France | If you want to foil, put some of those babies on your 5.2 and start your own class, but dont bring them into the A Class, we want something more "traditional". That's where I'm confused. If you want something traditional, why are you on a A class? The A class doesn't strike me as a traditional class, but as a development class, like the moth. The moth would be completely irrelevant if they had gone the traditional way instead of embracing something new and exciting... And I don't want yet another foiling frankenboat, I'd like something based on a modern platform, with a chance to become a class. So the 5.2 is out as a foiling platform IMHO. I'm not a A class sailor, but I truly believe the class vote to outlaw foiling was a setback. | | |
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