Just curious, having a look at the David & Goliath Cup, can`t seem to find any big-boat bashing going on recently. Is it :
a) No-one sails f16`s against F18`s etc. ?
b) No-one who sails f16`s has beaten any F18`s ?
c) No-one sails F16`s at all ?
d) No-one submits their results, so nobody knows about it ?

I`m just curious as to why the David & Goliath Cup never seemed to gain momentum - to me it seemed like a very exciting way to put the theory that F16 is as quick as F18 into practice.
Maybe I should dig up the results from our recent regatta - I beat 1 (novice)Hobie Tiger sailor in almost every race (yes, even on a mosquito !)

Cheers
Steve

Steve,

The answer is a little of answers A thru D. Over here there is no F-16HP racing to speak of. At the F16HP Nationals, only 3-4 boats showed and they all left early. The Taipans have two fleets (Annapolis and Tampa/Clearwater with 3-4 ea), but there are no F-16HP fleets.
Another problem is that there has been no F-18 racing to speak of. The F-18s had a good showing at their NAs in Michigan, but other than that, there are never more than 4 boats racing. 4 boats do not make a class.
At the Rehoboth regatta, Taipan builder and designer Jim Boyer chose to race his Taipan in the last half of the regatta in the non-F-16 mode (non-spi). Jim Boyer apparently showed some speed, but failed to beat the Nacra F-18, despite being a more skillful sailor than the F-18 team.
Overall, the F-16HP class has not been able to prove themselves to be "for real". At the last two major East Coast regattas in Hartwell, Ga and Rehoboth, De, there were only one boat attending each regatta. There was a lot of talk on the Internet about a F-16HP seminar by Boyer prior to the Rehoboth Regatta, but nobody showed. The F18ht class did have a seminar at Rehoboth with eight teams participating, but this doesn't help the F-16hp's cause. I recommend more time on the water and less on the keyboard.

Going sailing, so I must say adios!

My dearest nacracando,

You're right. The boats are really slow. Actually, the boats are a lot slower than an Optimist Pram.

I'm just confused about one thing - the last 18ht I raced beat me in light/moderate air by 1 minute in a 50 mile race. If the f16 is slow, what does that make the f18ht?

Of course, I'm sure this doesn't matter to you, since the sailors were average sailors just like me (also some of the nicest people I've met in a while), not rock stars that spend 5 days a week on the water. Takes all the fun out of it, when someone compares apples to apples, hunh?

Welcome to the real world. I and most of the rest of the f16 class are regular sailors. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. Sometimes we decide to go to a race. Sometimes we don't.

AND WE DON'T OWE YOU A GODDAM EXPLANATION FOR WHY WE DO THESE THINGS UNTIL YOU JOIN THE CLASS.

cordially yours,
michael c.
t4.9 #32

p.s.
what's your real gripe? Are you going through some personal crisis? Do you even sail a cat? What class? How did you place at Hartwell? Last time you got on, you asked if I was at the same regatta as you - but wouldn't say how you did. Are you just full of [censored], or where did you place? All you do is bitch about how bad other sailors are. But we don't just want to hear about ourselves - we want to hear about how good you are.

Dear Mike,

After SAILING and practicing for over 5 hrs today, I return to answer you post. I reinterate my suggestion to you and you classmates--Get off the keyboard and onto the water.

As far as my comments pertaining to your classes' performance, I was comparing the F-16HP and the Nacra F-18 at Delaware. The F-18, sailed by Zenke, proved that Wouter's insistance that the F-18 and F-16HP are equal in performance is hogwash. The important thing is not that your boats are as fast as the F-18 or not. The most important thing is that you class needs to make better showings at the regattas. You simply need more participation and less talk.

I must say goodbye because I will be SAILING and practicing tomorrow. I need my rest, being 50 years young. Remember, get your class on the water and to the regattas, if you want to succeed.

See you on the water.

Nacracando,
Of your 12 posts since you registered on the catsailor site
10 of those posts have been on the F16 Forum.
We must be doing something right to get so much of your attention. (you being so busy sailing and all)

WOW! We really must mean a lot to you.

You know there are other forums on this site that could benefit, just as we have, from your words of wisdom.

Go on, give it a shot, I'm sure they will love you as we do.

Nacracando-
You are going to tell us "Hey man, get out to the water!"??
You seem to like to refer to "us" by our real names yet you have never posted any of your "real name". This forum is not an "anonymous" forum, there is already an anonymous forum and it's been pretty much destroyed by persons such as yourself IMO. This forum is for persons interested in sailing and promoting the F 16HP's in particular(just in case you couldn't figure that out) and the Formula concept in general, although the F 18's and (seems to be your favorite) F18HT's have their own forums and their own agendas and I suggest you share your wisdom and "facts" with them, perhaps they will appreciate you.
You seem to have your own secret (anonymous) agenda (and being very careful to remain anonymous) and I, for one, am suspicious that it is not for the benefit of our class (or any class?). But alas, without your identity (as you are all too well aware I am sure!) we must merely conjecture as to who you are and exactly what your agenda is.
You seem to take great delight in belittling our Class with your selective "facts"- You repeatedly make mention of our "poor" turnout at our first Nationals (it was 4 boats by the way) and the "great" turnout of the F 18HT's (Let's see- How many did they have?? Was it eight or so?? But to you that's a "great" turnout for a boat named to the upcoming Alter Cup and the Worrell 1000???). Since your (anonymous) "name" seems to indicate you like Performance products- How many Inter 17R's were at their Nationals this year? Participation in a LOT of catamaran classes has been down in case you haven't noticed anybody but our little fledgling class- There was this terrorist thing here in the U.S., a war in Afgahanistan, a pretty bad economy with stock maket tumbles, etc. You mention a regatta at Lake Hartwell- Yeah, there was only one F 16HP there this year but how many F 18HT's were there again?? I'm sure you know, please tell us. As for sailing, since no one knows who you are, where you sail, what you sail, or even if you DO sail (all we know about you is that you are capable of registering anonymously, posting anonymously, and making claims about yourself and what you have been doing which you can never back up because we don't know who you are!).
So, please, either identify yourself, go away, or go do anything but sail, because if you do you might end up on the water with some of us and we don't need persons in our sport who choose to dishonestly represent themselves, which is what you are doing on our forum.

Sincerely,
Kirt Simmons
(Now you can find out whatever you think you "need" to know about me!)

Kirt et al,

The Summer Sizzler will be held here in Virginia on June 21 and 22nd, with a seminar day on Friday 6/20. We are trying to get as many F-16HPs, F-18s, and F-18HTs to come as possible. This would be a great regatta for you class to attend in force, as there are 3 Taipan 4.9s on the Chesapeake Bay. I have the Bim 16 that is for sale (great $ deal) and could make a forth HP from the area. If you get the Florida boats to come north, then the F-16HP class could make a real splash!

There will be a notice of race on the Internet next week and I will make an announcement when it post. How about it? Let me know and I will get nice F-16HP trophies, if your class has enough boats for a fleet.


Sail Fast and Light,

W.F. Oliver
F-18HT USA-3

Sorry, didn`t mean to start a bunfight - I`m still curious as to the fate of the David & Goliath Cup, & why it hasn`t really taken off.
Nacracando - I don`t really believe it`s sensible to compare a F18 to a Taipan sailed without a spinnaker - In a recent regatta a Hobie Tiger broke a spinnaker pole, Hobie 16`s went past them downwind. For whatever reason Jim sailed the Taipan without spinnaker, it was his choice, so don`t compare his performance to the F18 in that case (would be interesting to see the time difference though, I bet it wasn`t that much.), we sail past non-spinn. boats downwind & choose which side to pass, you can`t compare the two.
You may have some valid points - I`ve seen very little reference to actual sailing news on this forum lately (now I`m going to get flamed !), for whatever reasons they have given it would still be nice if the members gave feedback on their most recent regattas they attended, whether it be on their own or as a class. It would help keep those of us who are remote a little more motivated to build on what we have if we could see some activity in the class.
I know it`s early days still, but let`s try to grow this thing ! (and not give eachother reasons to get high blood pressure.)

Cheers
Steve

First lets see how Jim would have scored in the cup :

DNC by bigger boats do not count, so these points are NOT included. Only boats that raced are included.

race 1; Jim beat on elapsed time = 2 HT's (out of 5); 1 I-20 ; 1 H20 and 1 Nacra 5.5
race 2; Jim did not finish.
race 3; Jim beat on elapsed = 1 HT (out of 7); 2 H20's ; 1 nacra 5.5
race 4; Jim beat on ... = 4 HT's (out of 8); 3 F18's, 1 I-20, 1 H20 ; 1 nacra 5.5
race 5; Jim did not compete
Race 6; Jim beat on ... = 4 HT's (out of 7); 1 F18 ; 2 H20
race 7; Jim beat on ... = 1 HT (out of 4)

The result look kind of funny because these race saw alot of DNC's. In race 7 only 7 boats race.

The points :

Jim race solo, which is extra challenging and therefor the singlehanded score sheet applies : http://www.geocities.com/f16hpclass/david_and_goliath_cup.html
race 1; = 8 + 8 + 4 + 1 + 1 = 22
race 2; = no points
race 3; = 4 + 8 + 1 + 1 = 14
race 4; = 16 + 12 + 8 + 4 + 1 + 1 = 50
race 5; = no points
race 6; = 16 + 4 + 8 + 1 = 29
race 7; = 4 + 1 = 5

Total = 120 points in 5 races

This will put Jim at 3rd spot behind Geert/Raymond and John/Sue but ahead of Neil and Amy-Jane

That is if we were still keeping score.

BTW anybody notice the high score in race number 4 7-8 knots. !!

Anyways, we have stopped keeping score in early 2002 as I had to devide my own time over other issues and nobody offered her or himself to replace me in this.

Also not everybody send in their results; after all we were all very busy at that time to get started.

Personally I like the idea of the cup and would like to see it revived. But somebody else will have to gether the results and sort them on elapsed time and score them.

I also think that with the addition of the sailors in South Africa, Australia and South Asia that we can get a good cup going. We have more crews now than we had back then. And also more of us have more prey classes nearby (Australia for example, same applies for the USA by the way.

I have a few proposals to improve on the way the scoring is done. So who would like to take care this little task of keeping score ?


Wouter

WF,
I appreciate the invite, as I'm sure everyone else in the class does. It's a bit too far for me personally to be willing to drive right now, but if anyone needs crew, I'd be happy to go.
Thanks again,
Michael

Wouter-
I thought Christopher Lord told me he and Jim sailed on his (new to him) boat. I'm not sure what their crew weight was though, never have personally met Christopher, but it may have been a little over optimum for a T 4.9 sloop??

W.F.-
Congratulations on the Alter Cup win! And sorry to see the hole in the F 18HT (OUCH!!). Thanks for the invitation but personally I'll be doing the cruise thing in the Caribbean w/ my family so I'll have to miss it. Have you gotten any of the new Jav 16's in yet?

Take care,
Kirt

>>I thought Christopher Lord told me he and Jim sailed on his (new to him) boat. I'm not sure what their crew weight was though, never have personally met Christopher, but it may have been a little over optimum for a T 4.9 sloop??


They did, but that was as the Icebreaker event where the finished up 2nd overall after an F16 (Taipan + spi)

Read all about that race at :

http://www.geocities.com/f16hpclass/Report_2003_april_27_USA_Icebreaker_Galesville.html

On that page there is even al pic of the taipans right after the start. This pic is also attached to this post.

Taipan F16 is to the left and Jim/Chris on the standard Taipan are 1.5 boatlength behind.


At rehoboth however Jim sailed solo and therefor cat rigged. The 1st day he sailed with a spi, in sometimes 15 knots and higher winds. The second day he sailed without in similar conditions.

I have no idea what their combined weight will have been. Whatever it was it didn't seem to hold them back at Icebreaker, Galesville.

Wouter

see attachment

Wouter

Hope I don't offend Jim with this, no malice intended, but you are comparing Jim's time with the best F18HT in the US. Looking at the specific times for the Aust Nats in 2003 the top boats boat were beating the middle to tail end of the fleet by over 6 minutes in every race over an hour. I think if you deducted that from Jim's times in the US and then that would be interesting. Jim has some good races in AUs and did not sail with a regular crew and I think was heavy at the Nats but I am sure he would be very happy to place in the top 10 at the Australia Nats if it was all going well and he sailed with a regular crew on weight.

Well in that case you aussie sailors need to show us how it is done right and send in results!

Send in your Cup results (race data with elapsed time quotations) and we'll include you in the cup.

Personally, I know the cup has been dormant since early 2002 and I'm just annoying nacracando with these results.

And also answering Steve Quicksilvers post about the Cup.

Wouter

Hi All,

Just curious how many T4.9/F16HP sailors are concerned about having a place to advertise the occasions on which they beat larger, heavier boats on elapsed time? It's no longer news that when you shed a bunch of weight, a shorter (and well designed – thanks Goodall, Boyer and the other designers) boat can beat some longer, heavier boats. Why the concern about exactly which boats we can and cannot beat consistently on elapsed time? We have rating systems that give us a pretty good idea of where we stand relative to other boats speed-wise.

I just think too much effort is spent debating boat speed, and the other benefits of the F16HP compliant designs don't get enough press. These boats won't sell on speed alone. They are quick for 16 footers, but they aren't the fastest boats on the water. Speed was only one of many factors when my wife and I decided to purchase our T4.9 – the boat just had to be "fast enough to be fun." It is just that and then some, for us. Flexibility (sails well one or two-up), easy to right, easy to manage on the beach, wonderful handling, de-powers well, etc. are the features that won us over. What features attracted you?

I'm sure that the D-G cup was created in fun and with the best of intentions, but I don't see it benefiting the class. The focus on the "we're smaller but faster" idea seems to offend more people than it impresses.

Respectfully,
Kenn Newbury
T4.9 USA226

Good points actually.

Do you have suggestions on how we can highlight these other aspects ?

Wouter

Here are a few thoughts, nothing that hasn't been said before though.

1. Have good web-based info available to curious folks who will poke around on the web. I think this has been addressed. AHPC has a well written page (pretty much a web-based version of their brochure) on the T4.9. I'm guessing the F16HP website has something similar (haven't been there lately). I haven't looked at the websites of the other mfr's. A side note: it wouldn't hurt to have a consistent group of agents in the US. A guy that asked me about my boat at a regatta the other week was under the impression that you can no longer buy a T4.9 in the US – I think he was looking at a website of a former agent.

2. Get out and sail . . . be seen. People WILL ask questions about the boats they aren't used to seeing, providing the owners are approachable. Answer questions with humble enthusiasm. Take people for rides when possible (assuming they're interested).

3. If we can manage to assemble a critical mass of boats at a few regattas a year (doesn't have to be called Nationals), it would help. Looks like the best place for this to happen is the Southeast. The rest of us are pretty spread out.

Additional suggestions are welcome . . .

K Newbury

-1- webpage, this has admittedly been aging a little bit. I found it to be a demanding task in addition to the other things I do for the class. Luckily Mark Woudenberg (New Dutch F16 sailor) has volunteerd to help me out in the content area. He will compose an info page dealing with where and how to get parts like carbon beams-mast, sails, cleats etc all over the world. This is expected to become the shopping jump station for F16 related sailor and for F16 related issues.

I'm personally intending to do a major overhaul of the webpage as soon as I can arrange for a prolonged period of free time. I expect this to come when the local branches organise themselfs and deal with local issues themselfs or when some task that I'm doing now are taken care off by others. At that time I only have to work on the international issues and general issues like promotion with involved the webpage.


-2- Agents, In relation to the US I can now express that a change of US importer of AHPC products is expected. However AHPC is open to all questions and orders coming in directly from the USA. Sometimes it dependents on where the US sailor is on what the best approach will be. Western USA, where Eric Poulsen and Mark Talla are are better serviced by direct contact between buyer and builder. Sailors in Eastern USA are advised to make contact with :

East coast sports (Maryland area; contact info on http://www.sailfastusa.com/)
The cat house (Michigan area; contact info on http://www.cathouse1.com/)
Or
Sun Jammers (Florida area; contact ino on http://www.sunjammers.com/)


The formula 16 class is maintaining good relationships with both builders and part suppliers and when a F16 sailor feels that he prefers to make use of this class network or requires help using a parallel channel to a dealor network than an e-mail to Formula16class@hotmail.com will do the task.

Several sailors have made use of the class network when dealor networks were found to operate inadequately. This network will continue operating in the future as a permanent alternative and to service enthousiasts in area that are not covered by dealor networks.

Designs in our port folio are :

Stealth F16 (Stealth R, Standard Stealth)
Taipan 4.9 (Taipan F16 upgrades)
Mosquito (and F16 upgrades)
Spitfire
Blade F16
and
Bimare Javelin 16 (not the best of relationships but we're still including them)



2. >>>Get out and sail . . . be seen. People WILL ask questions about the boats they aren't used to seeing, providing the owners are approachable. Answer questions with humble enthusiasm. Take people for rides when possible (assuming they're interested).

A good idea that has taken hold in the USA and Australia as well as South Africa. for example Michael and Mark have done their bit and Eric Poulsen is the direct result.

Europe will be the next target. I'm currently meeting with the F16 sailors in Holland to cement the group and build up a basis from which to build the class. I've sail with Geert on his taipan spi and I will sail on Sandra's Bim 16 and Marks F16 soon. A option to try out an F16 is under construction right now and will be used to offer test rides to interested sailors. I personally think this issue is for the local sailors and local class organisation. I'm doing it myself for the Netherlands and hope to see others continue doing it or start doing it in their area's. A good idea.



>>>3. If we can manage to assemble a critical mass of boats at a few regattas a year (doesn't have to be called Nationals), it would help. Looks like the best place for this to happen is the Southeast. The rest of us are pretty spread out.


I think this is an issue for the locals; some US sailors needs to work out a schedule that is attractive to all. As the local class head for the Netherlands I have done so for my area. With respect to nationals and worlds. We are currently working out a proposal to call these challenges. This name will be more appropriet as we're looking to include designs like Spitfires and so. It will also avoid conflicts with the ISAF organisation over using names like "worlds". Rumour has it that they are pretty hung up on this things. Therefor we are working at having a Formula 16 global challenge in early 2005; The challenge is to beat all other Formula 16's and grandfathered boats on elpased time. This may include a series of point scored bouy races as well as 1 or 2 distance races and maybe a speed trail series.

In short the challenge is a overall class with 3 individual components designed around having fun while doing some competitive sailing on the water.


>>> Additional suggestions are welcome . . .

For the Netherlands and maybe France and UK were are looking to have a single stand of Formula 16 boats. At this point we are looking at three brands joining their efforts to have a single stand at Hiswa boatshow. All three will be promoted equally.

This approach saves costs and will strenghen each individual promotion as well by showing the class involvement.

A similar style project can be started elsewhere. Any takers.

More to come later, I have to attend to something right now...

Wouter

Guys,
The reason Jim and Chris did not sail with a spin is the boat was not rigged for one!!!!
I know, 'cause I sold the boat to Chris.
This was the first time Chris was out on the boat since he came to Florida to pick it up.
I think they did a great job going as fast as they did with Chris being so new to the boat. Yeah, Yeah, I know Jim Boyer is the expert, but he still has to train his new crew/owner on the water!
Sorry to break in....I'm not in the class anymore, just wanted to set the record straight.
John