Really like how "modern" cats are heavier than older cats. Taipan is 20 yr old design, Viper is 2 yr old. Yet the Taipan is 20kgs lighter. And as for F18s, 180kg is just plain ridiculous. Guessing this is progress??? At least you can justify paying more for the boat as there is more in it, haha.

Pay by the KG!!

but seriously, the Viper has much bigger hull volume, this alone accounts for a lot of the weight gain and the beams are massive compared to the tiny Taipan things.

All these things make the Viper faster than the Taipan, so in reality there is progress... More in the shape and stiffness areas rather than the construction methods.

Cost has been contained rather well, if you made a cat with the same tech and weight per Square M as a Moth then it would cost more than a Porsche...

So progress only in design, but not in construction? And costs contained by moving to cheap labour countries (eg Thailand for the Viper). Not quite seeing it.

And for comparing to the moth, the moth costs less (well mine did) but the tech involved in building is a lot more. Don't see construction in beach cats along the same tech lines where it seems to be all a bit agricultural.

But if you built a 16ft cat hull with the same technology as your moth then you would be looking at a very expensive hull.

The surface area alone would be at least 4 times as much as a moth, plus the extra structure to support the larger platform...

Normally i refuse to response here anymore but i will do now because i hate to see this weight thing again happening.
The fact is that the best sailors are at the Vipers at the moment. When you put Ashby on a 10 kg heavier A-cat ( what type ever)he will probably win because he is the best sailor out there in A-cat. When you are going to put JC on a F16 of 110 kg or less he will probably win because the boat will react quicker and better and he is a very good sailor.
At the moment the Viper is having the best sailors on and then you have the biggest change of winning.
In F18 the minimum is 180 kg and when you have a boat of 200kg with a top sailor who is winning the events will the class than raise the minimum to 200kg. Likely not.

Why is the weight issue of F16 everytime coming back, the class rule is clear on what can be done.

I really do not see the point why F16 is used everytime to discuss his minimum class weight.
It is very frustrating to see this weight crap happening everytime, go sailing and develop the class

I assume Macca is just stirring AGAIN because he feels that he needs for some reason.

Sad he cannot just let us get on; I for one like my light boat as I sail single handed.

Tell you what Mac; get the A class to add 20 kg's to their min weight. That's not going to happen.

How about you get Glenn to sail with an A class 20kg over at the next worlds he attends and see if that makes a difference; I bet you cannot "because it will make the boat slower".

The F16 class is not going to vote for a weight change; give up Macca; it's a non starter and you know it; you keep bring this up for some reason, I assume you just want to cause problems. Very ad macca that you have nothing better do.

Move on mate.

How much do the various builds of F16's weigh? I would love to see a list!

As far as I know the Viper is around 125kg!? (could be wrong though)

What about the other builds?

** Yawn **

Yes the top guys are on the latest and greatest boats, and of course winning.

But in Singapore we have found the heavier Viper isn't winning or dominating against the Taipan when average club warriors are on both types of platforms to the same extent you would expect from a much more modern design. When the rigs are the same (mast/ jib/ main/ spin), then next area to point at is weight and design. 20kg is a major difference.

Example for you are the results here: http://www.csc.org.sg/documents/result/feb09/NatCat09.xls

Wind conditions were 10-15 over 2 days. 8 Taipans and 3 Vipers. When Macca decided to turn up on the second day he won 3 of the 4 races easily, but the rest of the fleet rather close.

Could the addition of weight to the Taipan mean we would see the superiority of the Viper design? Or vice versa, if the Viper came down to a normal weight for a 16 ft boat. Or is it close due to the fundamentals of the F16 rule working? This last bit is hard to argue by anyone for me when a platform is at a "disadvantageous" 20kg overweight.

I stir because I am... But seriously, You guys are happy to claim an F16 success when it suits, but the result was achieved on a 1.04 rating which, correct me if I am wrong is not the official F16 rating of 101 which you use to show the world that your super boat is as fast as an A class and F18.

So I am simply pointing out that maybe the performance of the current field of so called F16's is not in line with both the rating and the current class performer boat (the Viper)

Macca, you're a great sailor. You're a far better sailor than I'll ever be. You do stuff I only dream about (Extreme 40, archipelago raid, you name it). I'm sure you could contribute a lot of things on this forum.

But you're also an butt.

You keep stirring stuff to this forum about weight, and minimum weight, and rating. You obviously have an agenda, I don't know what it is. Maybe the fact that you're a Nacra sponsored guy has something to do with it, maybe not. But just come clean about it, be a man and tell us the *real* reason you have a grudge against the class. Or just get the kiss away from this forum.

That's strange, I could swear I just heard the sound of a Galah!

Andrew, is it the class who is doing the ratings, no they are not.When the F16's are sailing against eachother there is no rating involved at all. It is the short coming of the TR that there can be several different ratings when they put it in there calculation. Weight is a major factor in these calculations and the Viper is taking advantage of this, when sailing an open event they can enter like a Viper ( not a F16 ) but they also can enter like a F16 boat and yes TR is different in this, but is this an error of the class and the reason to hack into the class over and over again on F16 class weight. The TR system is just a theoratical system and is not always correct.
See a-class in this system also. A-class is having the same rating as F18 but the F18 is doubeling there sail area downwind is this fair?

Why do the F18's not leave there jib home when sailing an open event and it is really blowing because it will give an advantage of 7 points !!!!!!!!!!. I am sure that the disadvantage of not having a jib can be solved by making another type of main ( size along class rules ) to suite the sailing without a jib. The TR will be 108, everybody is free of doing this when entering an open event but is it then the fault of the class ?.

Chris Sproat did a smart move here and did take advantage of the loophole there is. Is this the fault of the class ?

Why cannot be said that it was a good result sailed by him. Stop. but no it needs another useless discussion.
AHPC is taking marketing advantage of this but is Nacra or Hobie not doing the same when they have good results in an event. I have read so many times the phrases "Hobie Wildcat did it again or Nacra again on top of the fleet" but it is often not telling the exact reason how these results where gained , and often a lot of people do know the reason or circumstances where was sailed in but do you here then. Is it the fault of the class ? that they had agood result. No you will not hear it because it is marketing not wise but is it then still the fault of the class?

Andrew, i would prefer more that if you have something on your mind about F16 that you call me and we can talk about it then start a fight on this CS thing.

Hans,
you are correct. I think the situation will sort itself out.

The Viper will win all the major events because its a better design, then the sales will follow and hence the Viper will be the default F16 boat and the rule will just have this funny little thing in it where the class min weight is 20kg lighter than the boat the bulk of the fleet are sailing. That should ensure stability in the class..

I would like to know why people are ok with a F16 that is 20kg over min weight? if an F18 was 20kg over weight customers would be screaming!

Andrew,If the Viper will be the majority of the fleet then AHPC did a good job and the F16 class will grow as we all hoping it should do. Yes this little thing will be in the rules and gives stability because it clearly is saying what CAN be done but not MUST be done.

I think the original point was that the win was not a win for the F16 class but for an AHPC Viper. I was at the event and I know that the results were originally shown with the Viper on a F16 rating and it did NOT win.
Ultimately a great event, a great boat and even if it had sailed off 101 it would have been (I think) 3rd overall with one over the water clear victory.

Guys, he is sucking you into an argument again. Dont bother arguing with him and his agenda, that has been tried earlier to no avail and much bitterness. Arguing with him only gives him credibility and furthers his agenda whatever it is.

We are the F16 class and our class rules are on a firm footing. Macca can huff and puff til he turns blue and it will not change a thing. Argue with him and perhaps lurkers on the forum reading his diatribe will think he have a case (which he dont).


Give Macca a laugh and tell him to move on. His sailing season is obviously over since he have taken up his "I want the F16 class to raise its class min. weight" crusade again.

Ohh, this question is easy to answer.

The whole idea of a formula rule setup is to have the boat converge to a setup that is the fastest UNDER the giving rules. Maybe the fastest F16 setup is to be found at a boat weight 20 kg higher then the class minimum weight ? What is so wrong with that ?

If this is proven beyond a doubt then the other builders will simply converge to the same number and all is fair. If the reverse is proven then the minimum weight of the class rule will see all boats converge to that over time, even the Viper.

The idea of he weight rule is to limit very exotic construction and therefor limit cost. It is of no importance whether that limit is set by some class rule or law of physics as long as it is set a value that is not to far out there in the way of costs.

In the mean time the class improves itself gradually like other formula classes like the F18 have done. Back 1995 the Nacra Inter18 was dominant, then the Tiger, then Capricorn and now the Infusion. Next year the Wildcat or new Carpricorn again ?

I don't see any instability arising from this situation.

I have never seen the F18 class being in trouble because the 1995 Tiger was no longer of the same performance with regard to the Infusion. Did you ?

Wouter

Please stop this useless discussion.

This is a fair statement, I think.

And I would like to add that the original point on our side is that the F16 class was THE cause that lead to the development of the AHPC Viper-F16. AHPC themselves identify it as an F16 and the F16 class organisation has officially certified Vipers as class compliant (after measuring).

http://www.ahpc.com.au/Brett_Viper.htm

I know as it was one of my tasks as Chairman for the F16 class (2001-2006) to attract new F16 builders and I have had alot of contact with AHPC concerning this boat. It is a bit of a stretch to argue that the Viper isn't a F16 at all.

Other then that I think it is only a smart business move to market the Viper as both a Viper and a F16. Afterall, Hobie did that with the Tiger and nobody can deny its succes in doing so.

1st place or 3rd place; hell, either way a very good result in a 57 boat fleet with the likes of Will Sunnucks, Grant Piggot and anybody else who wanted to become the Nacra F18 UK champion for 2009.

The really interesting question is not whether the rating is off or whatever, but whether the team Sproat/Burke would have done better/worse on a F18 ? Whether the choice to go for a significantly smaller boat held them back at all ?

Even whether any other non-F18 designs like say the much hyped F17 or FX-ones would have seen them end up at the same scoring ?

Looking over the results and the fact that a change to a F18 handicap would only see them drop to 3rd overall, suggests very clearly that the Viper F16 design allows them to realize their talent and skill into impressive results among a fleet of their peers (who sail F18's for example).

And THAT, my friends, has always been the claim of the F16 class that is ones again proven by actual race results

Wouter