I know, but that was then, and the rules have changed (IHCA passed the spins for youth).

You're right, at the end of the day, whatever gets more kids on the water is the right answer. But, if we want to prepare them for international events, they need to be sailing that platform.

Mike

The membership survey was after the rule was made for youth.

Also I believe it is the standard Hobie 16 that has gotten more kids on the water AND prepared more kids for international events.

Even if it's a H16 and not a SL16, they at least need to practice with a spinnaker on the boat to have any hope of racing well in a spinnaker class, don't you think?

Mike

Yep the one US team that goes to the Youth Worlds in any given year will need to practice as much as possible, preferably in the actual boat being used. But the Youth MH champs should not live and die by the one team that gets to go to the Youth Worlds every year.

Mike..

I agree with you... my intention was not to bash NAHCA... they are the US Leader here with junior sailing and have been forever.

AS you say it's a tough nut to crack...

I am simply noting that the emperor has no clothes. The crowd is gearing up to scream KILL ISAF... they are dissing us again...

We are saying we want Olympic/International/ 5 and 5 events etc etc. But really are just doing the same things that contributed to the fiasco before. It's the same ol same ol program. (Do you think US Sailing would have voted to protect Stars if the World's top cat sailors at the junior and senior levels were US Sailors?)

We will bash ISAF and US Sailing for 2016....because it is convenient, let's us off the hook, and they screwed us before... So of course it's their fault again.

However, nobody wants to acknowledge our screwups leading up to the past fiasco or our limitations going into the next round.

Internationally, the world is using SL16's to train and develop Junior sailors. In the US we use Hobie 16's. (one championship with spin's does not reflect the US program).
So, the facts on the ground are that the US catamaran clubs are using a 10 foot ladder for a 50 foot wall.

I agree with you that it's a tough nut... but we don't have a nutcracker here... (to keep the analogy)

As the HCA class has correctly said... Hey... who told us to scale the 50 foot wall/... we don't want to!

Right now... we have a low key program that emphasizes participation. It is a perfect fit for the Hobie Class Association. US Olympic will need something quite a bit different.

ISAF reasonably looks for the level of international participation at World events to measure the disiplines sailors commitments to international competition. So, look at US participation in Tigers, F18's, A class, Hobie 16 and Tornado Worlds. Can you argue that we have strong participation among US Catamaran Sailors with good results?

We are simply fooling ourselves. What would happen if ISAF does implement a 5 /5 solution a year from now. US Sailing announces.. we need pipelines for Men's and Women's Adult and Junior pipelines for catamarans. What do you have? events?, training?, coaching? Who is in the pipeline? How have they done internationally, results?

When US Sailing Olympic concludes that what we have is not close to competing on the international level... They will fund the skiff sailors. We will scream and holler that they sold us out again when they opt to support high performance skiff sailors and not multihull sailors.

Rather then pretend, we want to compete internationally... Perhaps we should reconsider our goals and right size them for our actual commitments.

I completely miswrote this one, so I erased it so I don't sound like a total dumbass.

Some really good points there Mark. If getting a US vote for multihulls is going to be based on the strength of our programs and recent Worlds results, we have no hope in the near future, and even less in the far future unless and until there are some major changes made on our end.

Mike

Mike

The US Sailing vote is the least of the problems... In the end... a sailing team must qualify the country for the games. Without a pipeline...generating a couple of teams going for it in the qualifying grade 3 events ... the US could fail to qualify in the catamaran... men's and women's. US Sailing is clear that funding levels depend on where you finish in the world events.

Never in modern Olympic history has the US failed to qualify in a sailing event. As for the funding, it's a joke. If you want to go to the Olympics you're on your own.

Mark,
I come om a different culture..
Cats are inside the main stream here.. We sail from clubs like every other class.. Yes there are only cat clubs but they are a rarity. Most cats sail from clubs that sail monos.. My assoc voted FOR the T! My did NOT lie to its cat sailing members!!

So saying this..

The decision to screw the Ts was was a political under handed self gratifying decision.. Yes backfired in ratings and showing some NAs were run but men who were playing with their **********...

I believe in ISAF wanting to be a good steward of all sailing as much as I believe in charitable federal reserve bankers and flying pigs...

I get the cultural differences! I am trying to look forward and be realistic from the USA perspective. ... ISAF has 10 slots. The nominal plan is to give TWO slots to catamarans....

Cough Cough... Now... were talking flying pigs!

Using the criteria you read in the ISAF report... What is the case for Men's multi, Women's mult in each country.

And are the catamarnas ahead or behind of the other disiplines who also want the slots.

So, where are we Today... What can we do and by when to improve the case...
If the plan is to count on ISAF feeling badly about eliminating the multihull.... that's not a great plan in my book. But maybe the rest of the world can make the case and I am simply too pessimistic or ignorant of the facts... I hope so!

It's not unreasonable for ISAF to try and cover all the disciplines within the sport of sailing. The fact is that more sailors may be represented in the mens single-hander than there are in women's multihull.

If you look at athletics, Surely more ordinary people participate in marathon running than do the pole vault or even 100 meters? The fact is that 100m is the most exciting event so it gets a higher billing than marathon running.

The US is nominally supporting a 5/5 program. do the math...

Women's Boards,
Women's Single Hander,.. Laser
Women's Match Race/Keel Elliot??
Women's Double hander... 470
Women's Catamaran ... ??? or Women's Skiff

Men's Board
Men's Single hander .... Laser
Men's Keel Boat .... Star
Men's double hander ... 470
Men's Catamaran.... F18 sub class vs Men's skiff

The US yacht clubs, collegiate programs and coaching ranks constitute a pipeline and are 100% committed to the C420 ... I 420 and then I 470 pathway. They will fight like hell to keep the 470... and will find support world wide from lots of countries.

SOME US West Coat Yacht clubs are committed to Skiff's at the junior level AND the US has world class talent in Women's skiffs. This is a bit of a pipeline.

Cats,,, pipeline??.... We have very very little institutional support for cats. Few young people racing catamarans... and much less then racing skiffs. Our entry to the Yacht club world is recent and we have not built junior programs to create a pipeline.

How can US Sailing Olympic stand up and say... We can qualify and win medals in women's and men's catamarans.... Especially over existing men's and women's skiff programs and institutional support they have?

Seems to me... US Catamaran Classes and the MHC need a strategic meeting with Dean Brenner, evaluate the situation and we choose to either punt or get on board with a reasonable strategy based on some reasonable assumptions and what's actually possible in the US.

There are some powerful people that won't let the Finn die easily, either.

Mike

what the f???
470 over 49er? This is the pinnacle of elite sport!! Shows the backward views of the US sailing association..

It's not US Sailing that will support the 470 over the 49er. It's every little third world country that can afford 470s that will make it happen. Quantity vs. quality.

I would say... quantity over high performance.

The 470 is an answer to this requirment.



The train is roaring down the tracks...
IOC wants 5/5 but NO women on the Olympic committe want a multihull... In fact they want skiffs for their 5th event and voted the last time for this outcome.

So, Do the women who race at Hobie 16 women's NA's and Worlds WANT an Olympic Slot? How many women are competing at F18 worlds as helm's... do they want an Olympic slot? How many of these women are under 30?

If the answers don't persuade... We need a better plan then 5/5 in multihulls.

If the multihull survives as a Men's only event... Will there be problems among the rank and file if Carrie Howe and Carolign B?? get told sorry ladies.... Go race skiffs!

Well, I'm not the first to point out the obvious, but sailing is unlike most (any?) other Olympic sports, in that men and women, and especially open teams, can compete fairly well on a level playing field, and men's only and women's only classes don't make sense on a lot of the equipment (especially cats). EDIT: I forgot about curling...

All I'm trying to say that it would be awful for the sport if we got a men's multihull, but no women's or at least open.

Mike

Mike

What's the argument from ISAF to IOC that multihulls should be mixed?

The overwhelming number of internatial teams are male at F18's and Tornado's.

the men don't care if women compete? the women don't care about multihull racing... they want skiffs?

I am not even sure why it would be awful. Getting a Men's multihull back into 2016 by next year would allow the internatonal competitors to resume training.

Personally, I think the lack of support for women's multihull racing at the international level will mean that they call the 5th disipline... High Performance. This would allow the women to have a skiff (which they want and the US has some strenght) and a Men's Multihull... (which makes IOC happy with men's and women's events = gender equity and lets ISAF feel less guilty about their terrible decison for 2012)

Awful, because as you pointed out, it would exclude some top women cat sailors. Not to mention, a large majority of cat racing teams as a whole (looking beyond T and F18) are coed, although I guess the same could be said for college sailing.

Mike