| Re: pros and cons of square top mainsail
[Re: Will_R]
#200495 01/14/10 05:43 PM 01/14/10 05:43 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 142 3 weeks Newman WA 1 week Robe ... Brian P OP
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Posts: 142 3 weeks Newman WA 1 week Robe ... | THANKS GUYS!! , mitch, but isnt your crew weight about 35kg more than todd, in the light wind he is bound to be on the wire earlier than most and up and going?? how much do you think that is making a difference in that light to moderate wind range rather than just the diff in the sail?
Brian Partridge STINGRAY 580 "Fantasia" A Class 585 "FHARKEN A"
YOU CAN'T POLISH A TURD BUT YOU CAN ROLL IT IN GLITTER!!!!!
| | | Re: pros and cons of square top mainsail
[Re: Will_R]
#200496 01/14/10 06:23 PM 01/14/10 06:23 PM |
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... scooby_simon Hull Flying, Snow Sliding.... |
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... | Brian - From a completely non technical point of view I'll say this:
In light airs/choppy water the square top seems slower, in flat seas it's about the same.
As the wind started to fill in a Victor (13kts) and we were able to stretch out on the wire the big head sail seemed to be faster, I sailed over the top of Brett and gained about 100m on Todd in one upwind work. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this is probably b/c it's much easier to oversheet a squarehead in light/med conditions than it is a pin head. Oversheeting is a painful death in light air. Agreed; you needd to watch what is happening with the leach and head on a fat-top sails
F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD I also talk sport here | | | Re: pros and cons of square top mainsail
[Re: Brian P]
#200507 01/15/10 12:21 AM 01/15/10 12:21 AM |
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 107 Melbourne, Australia MitchB
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Posts: 107 Melbourne, Australia | Our crew weight was actually more like 45kg more than Todd! Yes that helps I suppose haha.
Thanks for the sailing lessons guys, I am faily aware of everything mentioned, BUT, I still feel on the stingray that the older style sails hold their shape better and drive more easily in light winds+chop.
I guess the other thing is Brian that its probably not that bigger issue in the stingray class - When time comes to buy a new sail I would get the Big Head everytime, but the older sails still go pretty damn fast!
Stingray #579 GLYCish
| | | Re: pros and cons of square top mainsail
[Re: MitchB]
#200508 01/15/10 12:30 AM 01/15/10 12:30 AM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 142 3 weeks Newman WA 1 week Robe ... Brian P OP
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Posts: 142 3 weeks Newman WA 1 week Robe ... | i think your right bro!!! i would need some pretty hard convincing not to buy one. i was hugely impressed with the shape of rex's mainsail from goodall's now, to find someone that wants to sell....... on a different point mitch, did you send your CV in?? sorry my email been dead for about a week now!!!
Brian Partridge STINGRAY 580 "Fantasia" A Class 585 "FHARKEN A"
YOU CAN'T POLISH A TURD BUT YOU CAN ROLL IT IN GLITTER!!!!!
| | | Re: pros and cons of square top mainsail
[Re: MitchB]
#200519 01/15/10 10:38 AM 01/15/10 10:38 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 733 Home is where the harness is..... Will_R
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Posts: 733 Home is where the harness is..... | BUT, I still feel on the stingray that the older style sails hold their shape better and drive more easily in light winds+chop. Back in the days of the failed F18HT, Randy built a main out of PBO that was clewless... sort of. He took the material that would be in that area and replaced it with spectra. That sail area was then added to the head of the sail. It really was a cool sail to look at and touch. We all called it "The Fly Swatter" b/c we were just flies on the wall when he had that sail in light-med conditions. The extra sail area up top REALLY paid off and this was square head vs. square head. | | | Re: pros and cons of square top mainsail
[Re: Smiths_Cat]
#200594 01/16/10 10:17 AM 01/16/10 10:17 AM |
Joined: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay Luiz
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Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay | FWIW, Bill Roberts once wrote the following regarding square top mainsails: ...What the square-top sail/wingtip does is prevent spanwise flow down the low pressure side of the sail that originates from the sail top where the sail is narrow, where the leech is forward relative to the sail below. On a pin head sail or pointed wing tip, the air exiting the sail/wing on the pressure side near the tip turns 90 degrees at the trailing edge and flows or is pulled spanwise down the sail, to an area immediately below where the pressure is lower. Air wants to run downhill just like water. The air on the pressure side of the sail near the tip is at a higher pressure level than the air on the leeward side of the sail at, say, 50% chord a foot or so, down from the narrow leech above. The pressure side air at the leech sail dives vertically down the sail, leeward side into an area of low pressure on the leeward side. This spoils the delta P across the sail at the top and reduces the span effectiveness of the sail or wing. The square top moves the leech aft and this delays the opportunity for the air exiting the windward side leech to flow spanwise down the sail to a low pressure area immediately below. With this spanwise flow diminished/eliminated, the span of the sail/wing is more EFFECTIVE, it more closely approaches the ideal lift for a given span. You could say the square top sail or square wing tip is an aerodynamic dam that prevents a parasitic spanwise flow which reduces the effectiveness of a sail or wing...
I'm still trying to understand it all... Luiz
Luiz
| | | Re: pros and cons of square top mainsail
[Re: Luiz]
#200606 01/16/10 11:48 AM 01/16/10 11:48 AM |
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 571 Hamburg Smiths_Cat
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Posts: 571 Hamburg | I'm still trying to understand it all...
Don`t worry. The explaination from said Bill Roberts is wrong (or so badly formulated, that I miss the message). Put tell-tales on your sail, and you will see in which direction the air flows. I have never spotted a spanwise downward flow on a well trimmed pinhead sail. Effect of taper ratio (and sweep) on wings is well examined, documented and understood in aeronautics since long (80 years or so). Google for "wing design" and/or "wing taper ratio". Even without the theoretical background, naval architects found by evolution the positive effect of taper, e.g. in a gaff rig, which was for long the standart fore and aft rigg, several centuries ago. And by the way, pinheads like aft swept masts. A well known fact for H16s and also discovered on many Bermuda rigged sloops (with pinheads) years ago. If we would only listen more to our predecessors, technical advance would be twice as fast... Cheers, Klaus | | | Re: pros and cons of square top mainsail
[Re: Smiths_Cat]
#200614 01/16/10 04:26 PM 01/16/10 04:26 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe | The explaination from said Bill Roberts is wrong
I remember going down that road many years ago. Long time catsailor forums members will remember what I mean. Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
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