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Re: pros and cons of square top mainsail [Re: Will_R] #200495
01/14/10 05:43 PM
01/14/10 05:43 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 142
3 weeks Newman WA 1 week Robe ...
Brian P Offline OP
member
Brian P  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 142
3 weeks Newman WA 1 week Robe ...
THANKS GUYS!! , mitch, but isnt your crew weight about 35kg more than todd, in the light wind he is bound to be on the wire earlier than most and up and going?? how much do you think that is making a difference in that light to moderate wind range rather than just the diff in the sail?


Brian Partridge
STINGRAY 580 "Fantasia"
A Class 585 "FHARKEN A"


YOU CAN'T POLISH A TURD
BUT YOU CAN ROLL IT IN GLITTER!!!!!
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: pros and cons of square top mainsail [Re: Will_R] #200496
01/14/10 06:23 PM
01/14/10 06:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Originally Posted by Will_R
Originally Posted by MitchB
Brian - From a completely non technical point of view I'll say this:

In light airs/choppy water the square top seems slower, in flat seas it's about the same.

As the wind started to fill in a Victor (13kts) and we were able to stretch out on the wire the big head sail seemed to be faster, I sailed over the top of Brett and gained about 100m on Todd in one upwind work.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this is probably b/c it's much easier to oversheet a squarehead in light/med conditions than it is a pin head. Oversheeting is a painful death in light air.


Agreed; you needd to watch what is happening with the leach and head on a fat-top sails


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: pros and cons of square top mainsail [Re: Brian P] #200507
01/15/10 12:21 AM
01/15/10 12:21 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 107
Melbourne, Australia
MitchB Offline
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MitchB  Offline
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Posts: 107
Melbourne, Australia
Our crew weight was actually more like 45kg more than Todd! Yes that helps I suppose haha.

Thanks for the sailing lessons guys, I am faily aware of everything mentioned, BUT, I still feel on the stingray that the older style sails hold their shape better and drive more easily in light winds+chop.

I guess the other thing is Brian that its probably not that bigger issue in the stingray class - When time comes to buy a new sail I would get the Big Head everytime, but the older sails still go pretty damn fast!


Stingray #579
GLYCish
Re: pros and cons of square top mainsail [Re: MitchB] #200508
01/15/10 12:30 AM
01/15/10 12:30 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 142
3 weeks Newman WA 1 week Robe ...
Brian P Offline OP
member
Brian P  Offline OP
member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 142
3 weeks Newman WA 1 week Robe ...
i think your right bro!!! i would need some pretty hard convincing not to buy one. i was hugely impressed with the shape of rex's mainsail from goodall's
now, to find someone that wants to sell.......
on a different point mitch, did you send your CV in??
sorry my email been dead for about a week now!!!


Brian Partridge
STINGRAY 580 "Fantasia"
A Class 585 "FHARKEN A"


YOU CAN'T POLISH A TURD
BUT YOU CAN ROLL IT IN GLITTER!!!!!
Re: pros and cons of square top mainsail [Re: MitchB] #200519
01/15/10 10:38 AM
01/15/10 10:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
old hand
Will_R  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Originally Posted by MitchB
BUT, I still feel on the stingray that the older style sails hold their shape better and drive more easily in light winds+chop.


Back in the days of the failed F18HT, Randy built a main out of PBO that was clewless... sort of. He took the material that would be in that area and replaced it with spectra. That sail area was then added to the head of the sail. It really was a cool sail to look at and touch. We all called it "The Fly Swatter" b/c we were just flies on the wall when he had that sail in light-med conditions. The extra sail area up top REALLY paid off and this was square head vs. square head.

Re: pros and cons of square top mainsail [Re: Will_R] #200547
01/15/10 02:56 PM
01/15/10 02:56 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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Smiths_Cat  Offline
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Posts: 571
Hamburg
from a practical point of view:
a good pin head is still better than a bad square head imo, but a good square head is better than a good pin head.

from a theoritical point of view, it is about higher Reynolds number and lower local lift coefficients, which leads to a less early stalling and hence more lift and less drag. Also the mast-to-sail-size ratio is more favorable if there is more chord. The gust unloading theory, which Rick explained so well, does probably the most good for the sail, especially for uni-riggs

Cheers,

Klaus

Re: pros and cons of square top mainsail [Re: Smiths_Cat] #200594
01/16/10 10:17 AM
01/16/10 10:17 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
veteran
Luiz  Offline
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Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
FWIW, Bill Roberts once wrote the following regarding square top mainsails:

Quote
...What the square-top sail/wingtip does is prevent spanwise flow down the low pressure side of the sail that originates from the sail top where the sail is narrow, where the leech is forward relative to the sail below. On a pin head sail or pointed wing tip, the air exiting the sail/wing on the pressure side near the tip turns 90 degrees at the trailing edge and flows or is pulled spanwise down the sail, to an area immediately below where the pressure is lower. Air wants to run downhill just like water. The air on the pressure side of the sail near the tip is at a higher pressure level than the air on the leeward side of the sail at, say, 50% chord a foot or so, down from the narrow leech above. The pressure side air at the leech sail dives vertically down the sail, leeward side into an area of low pressure on the leeward side. This spoils the delta P across the sail at the top and reduces the span effectiveness of the sail or wing. The square top moves the leech aft and this delays the opportunity for the air exiting the windward side leech to flow spanwise down the sail to a low pressure area immediately below. With this spanwise flow diminished/eliminated, the span of the sail/wing is more EFFECTIVE, it more closely approaches the ideal lift for a given span. You could say the square top sail or square wing tip is an aerodynamic dam that prevents a parasitic spanwise flow which reduces the effectiveness of a sail or wing...


I'm still trying to understand it all...

Luiz


Luiz
Re: pros and cons of square top mainsail [Re: Luiz] #200606
01/16/10 11:48 AM
01/16/10 11:48 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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Smiths_Cat  Offline
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Hamburg
Quote
I'm still trying to understand it all...



Don`t worry. The explaination from said Bill Roberts is wrong (or so badly formulated, that I miss the message).
Put tell-tales on your sail, and you will see in which direction the air flows. I have never spotted a spanwise downward flow on a well trimmed pinhead sail.

Effect of taper ratio (and sweep) on wings is well examined, documented and understood in aeronautics since long (80 years or so). Google for "wing design" and/or "wing taper ratio".

Even without the theoretical background, naval architects found by evolution the positive effect of taper, e.g. in a gaff rig, which was for long the standart fore and aft rigg, several centuries ago.

And by the way, pinheads like aft swept masts. A well known fact for H16s and also discovered on many Bermuda rigged sloops (with pinheads) years ago.

If we would only listen more to our predecessors, technical advance would be twice as fast...

Cheers,

Klaus

Re: pros and cons of square top mainsail [Re: Smiths_Cat] #200614
01/16/10 04:26 PM
01/16/10 04:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

The explaination from said Bill Roberts is wrong


I remember going down that road many years ago.

Long time catsailor forums members will remember what I mean. grin

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: pros and cons of square top mainsail [Re: Wouter] #202905
02/11/10 03:03 PM
02/11/10 03:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 25
Netherlands
L
Leo Ambtman Offline
newbie
Leo Ambtman  Offline
newbie
L

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 25
Netherlands
I sailed a classic Tornado (pinhead sail). Now I sail the new Tornado (square top). I doubt the new one is faster when reaching in heavy wind (both double trapeze). At the classic T. center of effort is lower and probably less drag. In heavy wind you try to eliminate the top of the square sail by a lot of downhaul so this makes it more or less a pinhead sail. However this is in contradiction to speedwindsurfing where you see a square sail with a loose leech. I think the topspeed of a catamaran (no spi) is for 99 pecent fixed by maximum heeling moment so in the end it makes no difference for top speed what kind of sail is used as long as the trim is correct (flat!).

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