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Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Jake] #202470
02/07/10 10:45 AM
02/07/10 10:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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yep, looks like your right. The little "press esc to exit..."
window in my Youtube won't disappear in full screen. Cursor offscreen and all it still won't go away on some clips. Pisses me off to no end.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #202471
02/07/10 10:50 AM
02/07/10 10:50 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
Pooh-Bah
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On the Water
Tawd, Try ALT+TAB . . .
disregard, I misunderstood your problem, the ALT+TAB will take you out of full screen. sorry.

Last edited by mummp; 02/07/10 10:52 AM.

Philip
USA #1006
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: P.M.] #202473
02/07/10 11:31 AM
02/07/10 11:31 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
Pooh-Bah
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On the Water
Tawd,
After doing a little research, this seems to be a known issue. What browser are you using? Will the problem reproduce using another browser? I found a couple of things that might be helpful.
https://bugs.adobe.com/jira/browse/FP-972
You will have to set up an user acct if you haven't already.
http://www.macromedia.com/support/documentation/en/flashplayer/help/settings_manager03.html
If I had the problem I would remove the Flash player and reinstall it. Good luck.


Philip
USA #1006
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: P.M.] #202476
02/07/10 11:59 AM
02/07/10 11:59 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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I run Firefox and I tried a reinstall of the flashplayer. Weird thing is on some clips it doesn't do it , but most it does. It does it with Firefox and IE and there doesn't seem to be a work around, according to that Adobe site.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #202479
02/07/10 01:04 PM
02/07/10 01:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
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Wetter prediction so far:
Monday: off shore, 3bf, overcast, some rain
Tuesday: off shore, 3-4bf, gust up 35kts, sunny

however some forcast services predict lower wind speeds

Let's hope thez will not cancel racing on Tuesday

Cheers,

Klaus

Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Smiths_Cat] #202480
02/07/10 01:10 PM
02/07/10 01:10 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
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there is no racing on Tuesday!


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: TEAMVMG] #202481
02/07/10 01:18 PM
02/07/10 01:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
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let's wait and see, it is a 2 day prediction. In case, will the race be postponed or cancelled?

Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Smiths_Cat] #202485
02/07/10 02:19 PM
02/07/10 02:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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racing is monday, wednesday, and (if required) Friday.

New extended video of USA sailing in very light air from today. NOTE: The friction reduction system slots are GONE! That whole thing was a fake!

Expect the protest flags to go up right at the 5 minute signal tomorrow on each boat. I believe Alinghi is going to protest that USA is not a "sloop" with the wing. I believe BMWO is going to protest Alinghi for their sails not be constructed in country.

Also note that SNG did NOT remove the recommended wind limits from the NOR as directed by the International Jury. They have also continued to fiddle with the rules of the match apparently - we're expecting more changes and trouble tomorrow.


Jake Kohl
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Jake] #202576
02/08/10 11:05 AM
02/08/10 11:05 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
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Jake,

What was the final verdict on the water ballast? I liked your mention of the bow-high trim on Alinghi for measuring but maybe not racing... Can they move that ballast around, or are they locked in with the ballast as it is set for measurement?


Jay

Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: waterbug_wpb] #202578
02/08/10 11:29 AM
02/08/10 11:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
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In regards to ballast as far as I understand it:
1) They must fill the boat for measuring with as much ballast as they will race with.
2) They can put the ballast anywhere in the boat they want.
3) They can discharge the ballast but cannot take on more than what they measured with.

Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: ThunderMuffin] #202580
02/08/10 12:22 PM
02/08/10 12:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Undecided
In regards to ballast as far as I understand it:
1) They must fill the boat for measuring with as much ballast as they will race with.
2) They can put the ballast anywhere in the boat they want.
3) They can discharge the ballast but cannot take on more than what they measured with.


There's a lot of talk about it, but we've heard absolutely zilch about the measurement of either boat. BMWO did make an official statement or two that they didn't agree with the measurement procedure because it could lead to some ridiculous outcomes (200 foot LOA boat with two 3000 gallon tanks on the back to make it pop a wheelie and displace only 90' for measurement). There is also a lot of semi-official (press) speculation that Alinghi would have to have NO ballast in order to measure under 90 feet if sitting level but that she would need a good deal of ballast to handle any kind of breeze. They really cornered themselves with a design dependent on a questionable rule/measurement issue. At the outset, Alinghi had intended to be able to take on as much ballast as they wanted after measurement.

The New York Court ruling stipulated that the ballast was to be distributed evenly fore and aft...somehow that got changed (because it would effectively cripple Alinghi to the point where they couldn't measure in?).


Jake Kohl
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Jake] #202641
02/09/10 07:53 AM
02/09/10 07:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Wed is looking like another light and unstable air day in Valencia...it's possible we see a repeat of Monday (racing cancelled). We've started a buddy system here where one person gets up to monitor the situation and starts dialing phone numbers when the 10 minute gun goes off. I've got free long distance (in the US) - if you are in the US and want me to call you, PM me. Payment for this service can be provided in beer or rum next time you see me.

I can only call so many numbers so it will be limited to 5 or so...Please, no x-girlfriend or in-law phone numbers. If I call one prank number at 4am - I quit calling immediately and you'll have to answer to the guys further down the list that didn't get called.



Jake Kohl
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Jake] #202677
02/09/10 12:57 PM
02/09/10 12:57 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Undecided
In regards to ballast as far as I understand it:
1) They must fill the boat for measuring with as much ballast as they will race with.
2) They can put the ballast anywhere in the boat they want.
3) They can discharge the ballast but cannot take on more than what they measured with.


There's a lot of talk about it, but we've heard absolutely zilch about the measurement of either boat. BMWO did make an official statement or two that they didn't agree with the measurement procedure because it could lead to some ridiculous outcomes (200 foot LOA boat with two 3000 gallon tanks on the back to make it pop a wheelie and displace only 90' for measurement). There is also a lot of semi-official (press) speculation that Alinghi would have to have NO ballast in order to measure under 90 feet if sitting level but that she would need a good deal of ballast to handle any kind of breeze. They really cornered themselves with a design dependent on a questionable rule/measurement issue. At the outset, Alinghi had intended to be able to take on as much ballast as they wanted after measurement.

The New York Court ruling stipulated that the ballast was to be distributed evenly fore and aft...somehow that got changed (because it would effectively cripple Alinghi to the point where they couldn't measure in?).


The LWL of BMWO 121ft (20ft more than Alinghi), they cheat the 90ft rule as much as Alinghi, by having a hull which is always in the air and has no rudder or daggerboard.

Weather prediction for Wed is even worse than Monday. Looks like a calm night for you guys over there.

Cheers,

Klaus

Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Smiths_Cat] #202680
02/09/10 01:38 PM
02/09/10 01:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Smiths_Cat
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Undecided
In regards to ballast as far as I understand it:
1) They must fill the boat for measuring with as much ballast as they will race with.
2) They can put the ballast anywhere in the boat they want.
3) They can discharge the ballast but cannot take on more than what they measured with.


There's a lot of talk about it, but we've heard absolutely zilch about the measurement of either boat. BMWO did make an official statement or two that they didn't agree with the measurement procedure because it could lead to some ridiculous outcomes (200 foot LOA boat with two 3000 gallon tanks on the back to make it pop a wheelie and displace only 90' for measurement). There is also a lot of semi-official (press) speculation that Alinghi would have to have NO ballast in order to measure under 90 feet if sitting level but that she would need a good deal of ballast to handle any kind of breeze. They really cornered themselves with a design dependent on a questionable rule/measurement issue. At the outset, Alinghi had intended to be able to take on as much ballast as they wanted after measurement.

The New York Court ruling stipulated that the ballast was to be distributed evenly fore and aft...somehow that got changed (because it would effectively cripple Alinghi to the point where they couldn't measure in?).


The LWL of BMWO 121ft (20ft more than Alinghi), they cheat the 90ft rule as much as Alinghi, by having a hull which is always in the air and has no rudder or daggerboard.

Weather prediction for Wed is even worse than Monday. Looks like a calm night for you guys over there.

Cheers,

Klaus


Klaus, wow! where did you find the 121' listed? I've always maintained that it was more than 110' but I never found any real evidence.

Both teams are definitely using all the room in the rules - but they are doing it in two different manners. Is one more legal than the other? I do believe so.

Suspended overhangs have been a part of the America's Cup since the very beginning and particularly the J class yachts that had the long glorious sweeping bows and sterns. When healed and carrying the leverage between the sail and the lead ballast, the J-boats (and all monohulls with overhangs) will extend their waterline length as the hulls are depressed deeper into the water. This is why the J-boats were designed with such extended overhangs.

BMWO has expanded on the suspended overhangs to a whole new level - but it is still a very similar situation.

Alinghi, on the other hand, has planned from day one to move ballast in order to shorten the waterline of their boat. Moveable ballast or dumpable ballst (other than the sailors and sails on board) has never been seen in the America's Cup...and outside of the Volvo ocean racing boats and a few other limited racing classes, movable water ballast is rather nontraditional...but I don't have the time here to go into the legalities of the water ballast issue.

The Deed requires measurement of the Load Water Line to be 90' (for single masted vessels). This LWL measurement, while popular in the 1800's with sailing vessels (which were the predominant cargo ships at the time), is mostly used today in the shipping industry. It is the static measurement of the boat in "load condition"...i.e. everything on board and in place ready to make sail including maximum cargo. Shipping vessels continue to use this parameter today to represent a fully loaded condition.

One could argue that measuring multihulls in this manner is a foreign concept to the LWL measurement and there would be some truth to that. There is an advantage to a trimaran configuration when restricted to a particular static LWL in that her ama overhangs can grow considerably compared to that of it's America's Cup monohull brethren. A catamaran can also utilize suspended overhangs (and Alinghi still does) but her sailing hull shape will be more affected by the rocker needed to suspend the bow and or stern at rest. You could also argue that the trimaran cheats the LWL measurement by flying on one ama and thereby increasing it's water line length when it is actually sailing. However, this is no different than the historic J-boats and other boats that used large suspended overhangs since the conception of the America's Cup. These types of boats have always leveraged suspended overhangs to increase their LWL when under way. LWL is a static measurement. What has never been done before is to move ballast around in the boat only during measurement to reduce their LWL in a "load condition" designed solely, and temporarily, to decrease the measured LWL at the time of measurement. Placing an exorbitant amount of weight in the stern of the vessel to make it pop a wheelie, and thereby decrease it's measured water line, is not "load condition" as defined by hundreds of years of common practice of LWL measurement as performed inside or outside the realm of the America's Cup.


Jake Kohl
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Jake] #202682
02/09/10 02:00 PM
02/09/10 02:00 PM
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I think having water tanks in the back of the boat is not such a bad idea considering how hugely overpowered these boats are.
BMWO where experimenting with extra weight near the transom last week so who knows...

Still very disappointing to not being allowed to go and see the big wing, IMHO a big #fail on BMWOs side.

Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Tony_F18] #202683
02/09/10 02:05 PM
02/09/10 02:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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why can't you go see the wing? I thought the BMWO compound was open to the public?


Jake Kohl
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Jake] #202684
02/09/10 02:29 PM
02/09/10 02:29 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Great posts guys, thanks!

I just want to add a relevant detail regarding the trimaran design: its amas aren't paralel to the mainhull, they have a built in bow down atitude at rest. The ama bows touch the water first, so the boat can stay upwright at rest, its weight resting mostly on the mainhull.

The cat's trick is to make both floats with a bow up atitude that allows for long bow overhangs. Those are supposed to sink as windspeed and boatspeed increases, so as to enlarge the waterline. In light winds, however, the waterline will remain close to 90 ft unless ballast is used - which doesn't make sense in light winds.

Both are interesting approaches to the same concept: explore the large overhangs allowed by the absence of a max LOA.

I like the trimaran solution best, after all it looks a lot like my boat grin grin grin, but there is another reason for my preference, and it is best explained by John Shuttleworth here.

If you don't want to read it all, the key part follows:

Quote
Now I should like to discuss the outrigger which is different in shape to anything tried before, and contributed enormously to the success of the design.

In order to look at the distribution of buoyancy along the hull we first have to look at a very different sort of boat - Eric Taberly's Paul Ricard. One of the significant things I noticed about this boat every time I saw it sailing was that it did not pitch. The reason is all to do with the position of the foil. If you look at the drawing of Paul Ricard in Fig. 3 you see that the lift of the foil is well in front of the centre of gravity of the whole boat.
[Linked Image]
This produces a couple which resists the tendency to pitch. What is more important however is that the centre of lift of the foil stays in the same plane as a wave passes. Unlike an outrigger where the peak of the wave will move the centre of buoyancy aft as it passes the hull. And of course this will push the bows down (see Figs. 4 a and b).
[Linked Image]
So in order to try and keep the benefits of the foil yet still use an outrigger I pushed the centre of buoyancy well forward and cut away all excess buoyancy low down at the stern leaving enough buoyancy distributed along the length of the outrigger to stop the boat from capsizing across my diagonal in favour of going over directly sideways.

So if you consider the outrigger shape shown in Fig. 4c it can be clearly seen that as the wave passes the centre of buoyancy of the boat the profile is rising and the wave does not push the bow down again and hence the boat does not pitch.


In short: besides allowing for the long overhangs, the tri with inclined amas also reduces pitching in waves and benefits from the largeer waterline in all wind strengths, regardless ballast weight or position. But we will only know for sure if it is the best solution or not when the sail side by side.

Can't wait for the races.


Luiz
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Jake] #202686
02/09/10 02:43 PM
02/09/10 02:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
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Originally Posted by Jake
why can't you go see the wing? I thought the BMWO compound was open to the public?

If only that where true!
They have a building at the Darsena where they receive guests, invitation only btw, and the usual lame store with overprices merchandise like at every big regatta.
These are the best pictures I have from the wing, taken with a powerful cameralens, without the lens you cant tell a lamp post from the wing wink
A girlfriend of one of my friends asked Tom Ehman personally at the team presentation but the answer was no.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
http://www.xs4all.nl/~tmels/P2083125.JPG
http://www.xs4all.nl/~tmels/P2083126.JPG

Alinghi changed to the mild S-boards today preparing for heavier winds, they have one on display at their base and it really is big up close. (The pics just down the whole boat justice).

Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Tony_F18] #202687
02/09/10 02:48 PM
02/09/10 02:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
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Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
Looking at livestream they are saying the start Wednesday will not be before noon due to weather conditions.


Have Fun
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Jake] #202689
02/09/10 02:55 PM
02/09/10 02:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
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Hamburg
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Quote
where did you find the 121' listed?


here: http://www.yachtingworld.com/fileBank/PDF/ac2010_preview_part_1.pdf

Jake,

I think we can agree that both teams violate the intention of LWL rule (and some other rules). It wasn't okay with the J boats, and it isn't ok today. Honestly I don't know if there is a more illegal or less illegal.
If BMWO or Alinghi wins the cup in the court and not on the water, it will be a shame. The boats are good, not 100% to the rules, but only a victory on the water without an aftermath in court can save was left over from the cup.

Cheers,

Klaus

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