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Re: Poll: Do you give your crew the mainsheet? [Re: Mary] #20534
06/11/03 08:08 PM
06/11/03 08:08 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 397
Burlington, Vermont USA
K
Kevin Rose Offline
enthusiast
Kevin Rose  Offline
enthusiast
K

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 397
Burlington, Vermont USA
Quote
I voted "No" to this one on behalf of Rick, because he would never let me handle the mainsheet. I don't blame him, because if I were on the helm, I wouldn't let him handle it, either. It's like I don't trust him with the TV remote, and he doesn't trust me with it.

It's hard to hand over the mainsheet to anybody that you do not trust completely . . .


I never thought I would, either, but when the synergy is right, it seems that it could really work well.


Kevin Rose N6.0na #215 Lake Champlain (New England's "west coast") Burlington, Vermont
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Poll: Do you give your crew the mainsheet? [Re: Kevin Rose] #20535
06/11/03 08:59 PM
06/11/03 08:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
I recently crewed on David Mosely's G-Force 21 along with Tommy Metz; three on board. While reaching we had Tommy on the jib/trap, myself on the main traveler/trap, and David on the Main sheet and rudders. Eventually we figured out that if I worked the traveler and when that wasn't enough, David eased the sheet, and Tommy worked the jib. It was incredible how much attention we could all pay to the job at hand. We slowly figured out who should do what through the 2 hour race and by the end the boat was moving incredibly smoothly for the puffy conditions. We each knew how to perform every job on that boat and still got along great - not easy! I can understand how letting the crew work the mainsheet (upwind; not necessarily reaching where both sails need to be maintained) helps incredibly even on a two person boat.

I've always wondered, while looking at those mono-slugs with 6 people on board, what in the world all those hands are doing! Now I know - we're really overtasked but I like it!


Jake Kohl
Re: Judging the Wind [Re: Kevin Rose] #20536
06/12/03 07:04 AM
06/12/03 07:04 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
My crew always handles the main sheet upwind...... He also palys the downhaul quite regularly


Re: Judging the Wind [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #20537
06/12/03 09:44 AM
06/12/03 09:44 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
For Tornados it has been common practice for many years for the crew to handle the mainsheet. Actually, Rick White is the one who started that trend. Until recently, the Tornado was a single-trapeze boat, and it was the crew that trapezed.

Well, back in the early 1970's, everyone was still doing it the traditional way, with the helmsman handling the mainsheet. Rick is and was a big guy, 6'1" and weighing over 200 lbs. He was on the helm at the Tornado Worlds in Toronto in the early '70's and he had his young son Todd as crew. Todd weighed about 80 or 90 pounds, so when he went out on the trapeze, it had no effect whatsoever. Rick thought, "This is ridiculous." So he put Todd on the helm and he went on the trapeze and handled the mainsheet. After that they got a couple of second places in the 80-boat fleet. (Unfortunately, they had to drop out because it was very cold up there and Todd was starting to get hypothermia.)

Anyway, another big guy at that event, about 6'2", sailing a Tornado was sailmaker Rick Taylor. He also had a young, lightweight kid as crew, so he decided to do the same thing Rick White had done. He put his lightweight crew on the helm and handled the mainsheet himself. That lightweight crew he put on the helm was Randy Smyth.

The Tornado was always a perfect boat to have a woman or a lightweight man on the helm and a strong, hefty guy on the trapeze.

Obviously, the person on the trapeze has a lot more leverage for pulling in the mainsheet than a person sitting on the boat, because you can use your legs as well as your arms to sheet in the main. So it was a natural for the crew to handle the main.

I don't know what the Tornados are doing now that they have gone to double trapeze and spinnaker, but I think most of them are still having the crew handle the mainsheet. As I said, these Tornado teams are very tight and highly skilled, so this configuration works well for them.

It's great when you can train a crew to handle the main on the weather leg of a race course or in a distance race. But for normal racers it seems to me that on most modern beach cats the crew has plenty to do on the boat already without having to handle the mainsheet. Does the crew play the downhaul AND the mainsheet?

And we haven't even mentioned the jobs for the crew downwind, handling a spinnaker and maybe also a jib with its sheet and barberhauler, and having to make sure the boards are set at the right up-down position and taking care of the mast rotation and the downhaul. And probably being responsible for easing/tightening the outhaul. And not to mention the precarious places they are required to place their bodies to optimize boat performance.

I think crews need a union.

Beaufort Scale (Judging the Wind) [Re: jwrobie] #20538
06/12/03 02:19 PM
06/12/03 02:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 215
Durham, North Carolina
jwrobie Offline OP
enthusiast
jwrobie  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 215
Durham, North Carolina
OK, back to the wind. Here are some links on the Beaufort scale that seem helpful:

Dynamic images show appearance of water, full discussion of history:
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/lot/webpage/beaufort/

The following has a nice diagram with smoke, flags, and trees - which
I have also attached separately:
http://www.ussartf.org/predicting_weather.htm

Great discussion in terms of effect of wind on water:
http://club-yachting.web.cern.ch/club-yachting/courses/beaufort.html

Nice table with descriptions in terms of smoke, trees - also attached separately:
http://www.mountwashington.org/discovery/arcade/wind/beaufort.html

Also, this book seems to have useful information on judging the wind and wind shifts, judging by the excerpts I could see on Amazon - is anyone familiar with it?

The Complete Sailor: Learning the Art of Sailing
by David Seidman, Kelly Mulford (Illustrator)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...102-5301355-5085710?v=glance&s=books

Jonathan

Re: Beaufort Scale (Judging the Wind) [Re: jwrobie] #20539
06/12/03 02:29 PM
06/12/03 02:29 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
If you want to cheat, on lake jordan you can always look to the steam tower of the nuke plant to see which way the wind is blowing if you can't tell from your ears or wetted finger :P

Re: Beaufort Scale (Judging the Wind) [Re: MauganN20] #20540
06/12/03 04:19 PM
06/12/03 04:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
old hand
Will_R  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
I run the main for most the people I sail with, but I don't hand it off often while skippering. I don't think it's too difficult to run the main, set the boards, downhaul, outhaul, jib, spi set, spi douse and spi trim. I'd rather have the skipper paying attention to where he is going and keeping us fast than do less work. I have two hands (plus feet and teeth) available to do what is needed.

I now have a pretty set routine that I do to keep things running. Once I get it rolling, you just have to stay on track with your plan. Getting your priorities straight is a BIG part! Know what is REALLY important for making the boat go, then hit the little things after that.

On a personal note, the busier that I am, the more fun that I am having!! After a wild tight mark rounding setting or dousing the chute and seeing that we have made ground on another team because of a good set our douse really makes me feel good. Also, I can see a big difference in upwind speed with the crew handling the main.

Will R

Re: Judging the Wind [Re: Mary] #20541
06/13/03 01:39 AM
06/13/03 01:39 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
There is no substitute for a crew working the main..... has 2 free hands and plenty of leg drive to crank the main on tighter than any skipper. Also is able to trim quicker for the puffs and lulls.

This lets the skipper focus on stearing a fast line and thinking tacktics.

My crew handles the main, downhaul, self tacker jib (minimul work) and spinnaker duties.

I handle the mast rotation which the cleat is conveniantly located at my feet or hip when inboard and have set the centerboards up so they are easly dropped or raised by the skipper when he is sitting as far back as the rear beam.


Who's line is that? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #20542
06/13/03 01:14 PM
06/13/03 01:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
I agree with Stephen, in that the crew is typically more than able, and willing, to handle the mainsheet upwind for me. Aside from leverage issues, my crew can focus more on trimming the sails correctly, leaving me to figure the shortest distance to A mark, as well as seeing what wind the other boats are in (header or lift, gust or lull, etc.). Should a cross with another boat be near, the crew certainly can understand my "we're going to duck/carry this guy" and adjust accordingly.

The other thing is balance. Holding the mainsheet keeps the crew (and therefore my skinny butt) on the hull in cases where waves try to stop the leeward hull.

Off the wind with no spin (tight reaching), the crew stays with the mainsheet and downhaul, while I keep the traveler and jib sheet (both of which require minimal adjusting). As Mary says, it keeps my head out of the boat more and I can pick my line better.

Off the wind with spin (borad reach), the mainsheet's cleated. I play the traveler and jib, while the crew focuses on the spin. Should the crew ever take his/her eyes off that thing, I will personally gouge them out, as it takes about 0.0000001 seconds for that thing to collapse or stall. As mentioned before, neither the traveler nor the jib need much adjusting.

I DON'T have an autotacker, so jibes get dicey occasionally, but a little planning and communication allow all the lines to get clear while turning.

And we dump the boat occasionally, but it has little to do with the main being cleated (this only complicates the issue). Usually, the dump is the direct result of that pesky "loose nut on the tiller".... Which, unfortunately, isn't covered under the warranty!

Jay


Jay

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