question does the Tornado have a tip weight designed to minimise the carbons benefits?

also to be honest I also believe the AHCP wing is actually better than the Tornados stick.. then its only my opinion.. lets hear from Goodall...

Stewart,

The Tornado carbon mast has no tip weight, but the F16 tip weight is so small that there is no impact on the masts performance and the performance gain is considerable.

And who gives a **** whether the Wing is a better section than the tornado teardrop section. The comparison I used was between two different materials, with the same section so it's a perfect example of material difference not design differences.

<**** comments here around, about cfrp (carbon) as the wonder weapon to save weight. There are many other possibilities to reduce weight without impact on structural integrity.
In my business with save around 10% weight per 20 years (not only better materials, but also better engineering, processes, etc.) and I think there are similar figures for other industries. Small boat industry resists this trend.
I wonder why a Torando could weight 160kg in timber and alu 30 years ago, and why a F16 now should weight 140kg, which is shorter, less wide, has less sail area and is build for lower crew weight.
In my opinion, that is because most classes are either OD, or Formula with is very friendly to the manufacturer (yet that are/can be quite nice boats). The formula 16 is a bit different, because it is more customer friendly (less weight) and this might be the reason, why there is this constant attacking by manufacturer (well by some persons who are paid by...)

Cheers,

Klaus

well see this is where you and I differ..
Firstly the ally in the AHCP wing is a significantly better temper than the Tornado drop..
secondly : I think the tip weight rule is a significant issue.. Add 5 kg to the tip of your F18 and see what it does!!

So in the ultimate F16 which mast should I get..

<**** comments here around, about cfrp (carbon) as the wonder weapon to save weight. There are many other possibilities to reduce weight without impact on structural integrity.
In my business with save around 10% weight per 20 years (not only better materials, but also better engineering, processes, etc.) and I think there are similar figures for other industries. Small boat industry resists this trend.
I wonder why a Torando could weight 160kg in timber and alu 30 years ago, and why a F16 now should weight 140kg, which is shorter, less wide, has less sail area and is build for lower crew weight.
In my opinion, that is because most classes are either OD, or Formula with is very friendly to the manufacturer (yet that are/can be quite nice boats). The formula 16 is a bit different, because it is more customer friendly (less weight) and this might be the reason, why there is this constant attacking by manufacturer (well by some persons who are paid by...)

Cheers,

Klaus

The F16 rule states there is a 6kg min tip weight, now I haven't measured a F16 compliant mast alloy or carbon, but would think that the alloy mast would have a tip weight around 9kg (tornado used to be 10kg tip weight min and they were tapered so pretty small up there plus all the masts I had were carrying around 500g lead)

So the real question is: would you like to take 3kg off the tip of your alloy mast? I sure as hell would!

Macca the statement above sort of puts you in the same frame as our current Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, that of making statements without really thinking through what he is stating, for purely point scoring reasons.

You state openly that back yard builders are not capable of making good boats because they don't have the technical facilities to be able to do so. At the moment the backyard boys ( who probably make more F16's than AHPC )make boats to weight and the one company who has bought in production ( AHPC only buys in hulls from another company )knowledge, can't.

Now I put that down to one simple reason, profit margins. AHPC have gone down the route of outsourcing production because it has a higher profit margin, no different to probably 1000's of companies in the world. The downside is by using cheap labour and outsourcing you get less control of production methods.

Anyway I'm not sure why we are having this conversation when the Viper is doing so well in sales, AHPC must be getting pretty pissed by now as the F16 sailors will turn against them, particularly if they continue on with this weight issue. Guys get on with selling ( and hence converting sailors ) F16's to the masses.

my stick carries 3 kg to be compliant...

So you mast tip weight is 3kg before adding correctors?? that makes your mast weigh somewhere around 8-9kg total??? sounds very light...

Now you are the one that is having comprehension issues Wayne, I stated that its not possible for a home builder to build an all carbon boat to the same standard and weight savings that a professional can with the suitable equipment.

I have not at any stage said that a home builder can't build a good boat. I know they can and have seen it done many times, however they will not be able to build a boat that is as optimised as someone who has access to prepreg, nomex and a big angry autoclave... I have also seen boats built this way and I can tell you which one is a better product, lighter, stronger and all round better.

And for you to state that the quality control of the facilities where AHPC build their boats is not as good as a home/small builder clearly shows you have the Gordon Brown disease... I have personally visited both locations where AHPC build hulls and I can say that both companies build a top class product that rates up there with the very best in the world. I presume you haven't visited said factories??? No, didn't think so...

If I remember correctly, most of the F16s at global challenge weighed around 112 KG. My blade rigged for 2 up was 111 KG. That is not far from min weight. I don't think a weight reduction of 4 KG would result in, at least for me, a noticeable performance increase. It is not a logical argument to use the viper's weight of 130 KG as the standard weigh of an F16, then make a general comment that an F16 that weighs 23 KG less would be faster and much expensive. You can spend all you want on prepreg, using an autoclave, carbon mast, carbon beams, ect. On most F16s you can only loose 4-5 KGs before you start having to add it back. Some are at min weight already. So the idea that the class will self destruct when someone builds a min weight boat is ridiculous. Most boats are pretty close to min weight already.

Damn, I knew it!

Now, should we send in the marines to rescue you or Mousad?

So when are you going to put up some of your own money and buy an F16? OR, if you want to have the Super F16, have Marstrom build you a carbon F16 5kg below wt. so you can add weights??

If I recall correctly the AHCP stick was measured as baseline for the rules.. I cant recall tho if the tip weight is the AHCP mast.. But I recall it being very close..

"And I just want to clear something up here: I am not being paid by any manufacturer. Currently I have no contracts with any catamaran manufacturer."

The one key word here is "Currently". So, who are you -trying- to get hired by? If you were to get the F16 mn. wt. raised, do you get a free ride? You should talk Marstrom into building you the $30K Wonder F16, that'll show us how stupid we all are...


WOUTER! Get back in here and straighten Macca out!

hint try SE 70 from SP only needs a 75 degree cure with a post cureno autoclave.. less mess and if you have ever seen me build anything believe me that is a GOOD thing!!

nahh send in the marines to rescue mousad .. but you may need the SAS to rescue the marines!!

<**** comments here around, about cfrp (carbon) as the wonder weapon to save weight. There are many other possibilities to reduce weight without impact on structural integrity.
In my business with save around 10% weight per 20 years (not only better materials, but also better engineering, processes, etc.) and I think there are similar figures for other industries. Small boat industry resists this trend.
I wonder why a Torando could weight 160kg in timber and alu 30 years ago, and why a F16 now should weight 140kg, which is shorter, less wide, has less sail area and is build for lower crew weight.
In my opinion, that is because most classes are either OD, or Formula with is very friendly to the manufacturer (yet that are/can be quite nice boats). The formula 16 is a bit different, because it is more customer friendly (less weight) and this might be the reason, why there is this constant attacking by manufacturer (well by some persons who are paid by...)

Cheers,

Klaus

Macca, never have I said that AHPC makes a poor product, from the one I have seen in the flesh, the cosmetic finish and layout is very good. From reading in the press, it is a fast well made boat and in my view caters for the 2 up light weight market. Great market strategy and will sell plenty of boats. Good on them and long may they sell plenty. Incidently does anybody know of what the latest Viper hull number is, some of you have recieved one of the later ones in Europe recently.

As to visiting their two production facilities, sorry no. The only composite factory I have visited was a top glider manufacturer where the layup men are given a computer calculated amount of foam, glass and epoxy and told to build x component. Nothing left over, nothing wasted and no excess weight. Not sure whether the boat builders do the same.

Macca you really need to talk to AHPC as doing what you are doing in having constant pop shots at the F16 class using the Viper as the case in point, is building up a head of steam against the Viper, In the long term it will not do AHPC much good as far as sales go. Its much better to be a part of a larger market than to try and establish a niche market for your product. Perhaps contact Gregg and Brett and discuss a joint strategy for furthering their long term company aims.

Our "friend" is just another in a long line of detractors who see the F16 as a threat to their own favorite platform.

Engaging him just encourages him.

Stop talking to him.

Lightweight for the F16's, or catsailing as a whole? From putting 365#'s on my own Viper, it handles it quite well.