Again I dont believe the argument.
The original group decided the "box". There was a lot of discussion that went into the material rules.. this is the default..

ok.. with your logic lets get Greg to post his full biz model and profit margins so the other builders can be brought up to speed..
Are you or Greg going to pay Stealth to change their tooling?

You going to pay me to use another method in personal manufacturing? I use the method I use because I find it time effective. So if I go to the methods Greg uses.. I am guessing will add 40 hours to my build.. Want me to work out the bill? I hear Bingle's Aston is for for sale.. Could be the deposit..

Im still waiting on you to tell me the "ultimate" F16 specs including mast..

Macca:

What do you get if Nacra feels comfortable entering the F16 field? Most likely that would not happend until the F16 is global which means being 104 compliant to get the French market. To be 104 compliant means an AHPC weight boat.....Hmmmm.

Nacra would save a lot of time entering the market by acquiring a quality builder like AHPC.

The F16 concept has 2 primary selling points – Light weight and versatility. The heavier small boat concept has been run with very limited success by the big players for a while now.
Where in your twisted logic does having to strap lead to a boat make any racing scenario fairer or better? In a perfect word everything would be equal and then we would not have to race because we would all finish first. If weight is that all important, then all the crews should be the same weight too. And since leverage is tantamount to weight we need to have correctors for height as well. The purchase on the sails needs to adjusted for strength too as then we can all sheet the same. Where do you stop?
AHPC has elected to sell a product laminated overseas and use F18 components. That is their economically driven choice. People have also chosen to purchase the heavier Viper, knowing this full well. To buy into something and then come back and protest the class concept as being somehow flawed after the fact is just wrong in my opinion. This is like buying a cheap house next to an airport and then protesting to have it shut down because you do not like the noise. It may be allowed legally, but that does not make it right.
Macca you take this even a step further as you do not even have an interest in the class from an ownership perspective. You may have a racing background, but many of your other posts definitely lack some basis. The substance, tone (and length) becomes more and more like Wouter each week.


Matt

I smell the makings of a Pay Per View Cage Match here.

Wouter Vs. Jacka! Two men enter, one man leaves!

Thunder dome!

My money's on Wouter, at least he's got some skin in the game...

For the record, I would not support height correctors as suggested in Matt's post above. Believe me, I've tried them all and I found them ineffective.

Seriously - the F16 Class rules are set. The Class may modify them over time but I can almost guarantee that those changes won't begin with non-members' efforts. This platform weight discussion has run it's course... again. Macca, I had the same concerns you do, but I handled the discussion very differently in direct correspondence rather than here on the open forum. The discussion was good and responses were consistent, but came in a very different tone than you're enjoying.

To answer the question first posed in this thread, I believe there is no ill will - Macs simply feels a frustration with a situation in which he has formed a strong opinion.

Timbo, you seem confused. We are not voting here. It's a discussion forum and hence were having a discussion. Nowhere does it state that I have to own a F16 to take part in this discussion.

As a side note, I am a fully paid up member of the F16 class association, So if we were having a vote, I would have a legitimate say.

Karl,

from the interweb:-

"FIM Motocross World Championship


FIM Motocross World Championship
Main article: FIM Motocross World Championship
The Grand Prix (or Motocross World Championship) is predominantly held in Europe with some "flyaway" rounds, recently in Chile, South Africa and Japan, but over its history it has visited numerous countries including; Indonesia, Australia and countries on both American continents. There are three classes: MX1, MX2 and MX3 (analogous to "450cc" and "250cc", and "open", respectively). Race day consists of two moto's with a duration of 35 minutes plus two laps, while the series is longer, generally incorporating over 16 rounds.
[edit]AMA Motocross Championship
Main article: AMA Motocross Championship
The AMA Motocross Championship (the "outdoor series") season begins in early May and continues until mid-September, and consists of twelve rounds at twelve major tracks all over the continental United States. There are two classes:[9] the 250 Motocross Class for 0–125 cc 2-stroke or 150–250 cc 4-stroke machines; and the 450 Motocross Class for 150–250 cc 2-stroke or 251–450 cc 4-stroke machines. Each round has two motos of thirty minutes plus two laps."

Seems they have a set of rules designed to make the racing withing each class as equal as possible.

Kris, I have stated this now 4 times in this thread: I am not being paid by any manufacturer and have no contract with any manufacturer!!

Matt,

My "twisted logic" is the same logic that applies to all Olympic and international classes (not all SMOD because they are meant to be equal from factory..) All classes have a system to ensure the boats are as equal as possible so that the results on the water come down to sailors ability and not their ability to spend...

And to imply that AHPC have made a compromise by having their boats made in an offshore facility is just straight out wrong.

Matt,

I think you'll find ive been bitching about this situation for a lot longer than ived owned an F16. At the time you told me to buy a boat and then you'll listen. Didn't seem to work. Why should Macca then?

Im sure Macca doesnt hate F16s at all. I think he really likes the concept.

You guys need to be more flexible. It is a situation of addapt or perish for the f16 class.

I see classes for displacement in that, and nothing more. So if I show up with a old machine you think I'm gonna be competitive? I think not. Yamaha started this year putting the engine in backwards to get the weight more centralized in the chassis of their YZ450F, will it be the new standard? Who knows at this point, but I'd say probably. Cannondale tried it years ago, and it eventually bankrupted the company because they couldn't get the fuel injection figured out.

Its radical design changes like that, or curved boards that get me excited. A Hobie 16 makes want to choke myself. The equipment rules should be short enough that they can be written on the back of a business card. There should be certain boats that run the gambit with new designs that absolutely obsolete the older designs in a few years.

A few millenia of sailing and this is all the further we've made it?

And as far as the arms race? BS? Its racing, get out your check book and do it up. This has to be one of the cheapest forms out there, if Marstrom came out with a 200lb boat that fit in the rest of the F16 rules I'd order one up in no time, $30k or not. You can dump all the money into it you like, but it does come down to tiller time anyway. Am I likely to be the next world champion of anything because I have the best boat? No! But you can't throw the best on a piece of crap and expect them to do well either.

You know guys....we keep having this "discussion" over and over. I can tell you as a 5' 10", 115lb female with a 135lb skipper....I think the weight is perfect! The rules are set for now..all the F16's, no matter the weight, are very competitive against each other. The F16 fills a gap in the racing world and does a fine job at it. Sailing is meant to be fun and enjoyable. Not to sit around arguing over a few kilo's. Obviously we all have been cooped up inside too long and need to get back on the water. Get on a boat and fly!!!

This topic has been rehashed time and time again… over a number of different threads with macca at the root of its chaos. It has never really been about a discussion on F16 minimum weight...It has been about one individual provoking as much aggravation as possible in who ever will run up to the F16 fence...It is like watching a 13 year old juvenile delinquent drags a stick down a junk yard fence aggravating the watch dogs into a frenzy....ending with him walking away with a sadistic smile knowing he accomplishing his goal, destroying the peace. How many times do you have to take the bait before you learn the game?
Some of you must be addicted to the confrontation as you are now actively seeking him out to torment you. What's up with that?

+1

They miss me when i'm not here?

That is the -vote- I was refering to, Jacka, you brought it up. But you did bring up a good point, simply paying a $25 fee, in my opinion, should NOT give anyone the "right" to vote on any class's rules. So I'm thinking maybe I should put forth a motion to the GC, that if you don't actually -own- a F16, for only $25 you can be an "associate member" but with no voting rights.

I think only actual boat -owners- should be allowed a vote. Otherwise it would be very cheap and easy for a producer to enroll his employees, at only $25 each, and throw a vote to favor that producer's products, yes?

I don't think it's me who's confused here Jacka...Get a job, buy a boat, then you can vote.

Timbo, Since you have degenerated to the juvenile level of name calling, this will be my last response to you:

I have a job that I enjoy very much, perhaps you are jealous??

I own several boats, just not an F16 at the moment, but you do make a compelling argument to invest in such a welcoming class..

You are the one who started flining the poo at the F16's.

And yeah, you nailed it, just like always Ace.

I am jealous, I really wish I were you, but only if you had to be me for a week.

Just go and buy moths. No minimum weight to worry about and they go faster.