First off Sorry no desire to offend or detract from the accomplishments and innovations produced by AHPC. I truly believe that their contribution has been understated! The Taipan should be inducted into the hall of fame.

Yes and I suspect I'm not the only one disappointed in the direction AHPC has taken. Some view it as a sell out and don't see any significant savings (at retail level anyway) to warrant moving production overseas. Of course I understand why you say the VIPER is such a better F16 than the Tiapan. No argument but it's also a hell of a lot heavier! Which is exactly my point. With exception to the Taipan (are they still in production??) they do not "manufacture" light weight boats. That is due only to "love of the sport" no doubt.

As for a all Carbon Viper, other then Mecca I don't believe anyone would be stupid enough to build one. Mecca on the other hand has proven his credibility by dropping at least 30K into modifying a Taipan 5.7 (the hulls apparently produced from the same molds that were destroyed by AHPC to make room for the heavier (much faster) Capricorn). And now he wants to raise the weights of the F16 class?? Yeah OK Mecca whatever you say...

I'm sorry you feel this way. You would be paying more for your boat and waiting longer for it if production was still here in Aus. We where proactive enough to shift our operations before this became a major concern to our customers.

We still produce the Taipan.

I think you will find that the hulls of the Viper and Taipan are around the same weight per Sqm, Its just that the surface area of the Viper is much larger and as such the hull weight is higher.

The platform is much stiffer = faster boat, via the use of larger section beams. If you used the Taipan beams on the Viper you would have a very soft boat torsionally. Even the rear beam on the Taipan was too small even before you loaded it up with a kite etc. I think the rear beam from the Taipan was originally paper tiger beam!

As a previous owner of a Taipan, I have a soft spot for the boat and recently I sailed one in Singapore set up in F16 guise. I then jumped on a Viper and was amazed at how much progression has been made between the two boats. The Taipan is a great little boat, but its just that: a little boat. The Viper is very well suited to the task of carrying the crew weight and a kite.

I have never said that I would buy a carbon Viper, Karl has stated in this thread that if someone made an all carbon F16 even it cost 30k he would buy one today. There's an opportunity for one of you class builders! Customer waiting with cash in hand!

Buccaneer, I am not sure how you accessed my spreadsheet with all my Taipan 5.7 build expenses itemised, but you must have the wrong copy because it cost a mere fraction of what you claim. I am happy to state that the Hulls, foils and mast (carbon) all cost less than $2,500 AUD delivered to my house. You can work out the rest pretty easy:- set of sails from industry friend, some carbon tubes from sponsor, trampoline from same friend who build sails and some assorted fittings compiled from more than a decade of Tornado sailing.

Not so expensive really. Even the trailer, full tilting with sailbox was purchased for $500 AUD.

So, not sure where the 30k went....

The bonus is that I have a great fun boat to play on whenever I get a break in my schedule and Greg (co-owner) and I would have to say that we have enjoyed that project as much off the water (in the build and modification stages)as we have actually sailing it.

I saw a new Taipan 4.9 with its owner at Port Melb on the weekend. Bloody good looking boat. Still a lot of very keen 4.9 sailors around. Hard to find a second hand boat unless people are upgrading.

Now that is funny. You have been caught with the stick Macca :-P

Just a neutral observation, from a non-F16 sailor.
I think Macca has presented a valid viewpoint, this does not mean you must agree with him.
The way I see it, the overweight Viper (by 23kg?) seems to be right up there with the other designs, first three places at a recent event? Either weight is of no importance in sailing, which I doubt, or the Viper`s hull shape and configuration has allowed it to sail beyond it`s on-paper capability (would be interesting to calculate it`s SCHRS number on it`s own weight - Blades etc should give it time). A logical outlook on this (if one exists among class members) is that they got the design right and at this point have a superior design to anything they are competing with, but the extra weight they carry makes them seem to be not as superior as they really are.
I take it AHPC have geared the manufacturing technique to allow the boat to be cost effective so it will sell. Where they build it is of no importance, they COULD change the layup and build an all-carbon autoclaved boat with the best carbon mast available, and triple the price, which would lower their customer base. I suspect if they did this and came in at 100kg, and added lead where it fits best, they would be much faster than they already are. I wonder if then all the F16 members would hold onto their opinions so steadfastly. I`m also quite amazed at some folks outlook - that they are "disappointed" at the route AHPC went with the Viper. If a manufacturer wants to build a COMPLIANT boat that has more weight by choice, and is equally fast as the lightest boats, it is their choice. Whether you buy one or not is yours. The only thing I think you could be disappointed about is that some of your preconceived ideas may be wrong, ie that it SHOULD be slower than your boat.
I`m not suggesting you listen to Macca and raise the minimum weight, but I think a more open-minded outlook might be required. Based on his persistence with regard to the matter I can only believe he has a vested interest in getting the class rules amended to favour the boat he will soon be sailing..

We have two AHCP Taipans at my club less than 12 months old. Afaik they are both a couple of kg's under. AHPC have been building their hulls and foils off shore for quite a while now.



I think the problem with F16 is one day it will be the ultimate victim of it's own success. As the class grows and the prestige of winning a worlds grows, eventually somebody will pour enough money into a boat that will blow every other design out of the water.

The great thing is that the class has the opportunity to minimize this risk now. Putting in some simple controls and grandfathering existing designs will go a long way to prevent such a situation arising and should take action quickly.

This class has some magnificent strengths compared to it's primary competitors but to not recognize their own strengths and learning from them is a recipe for disaster.

Cheers,

Michael

The thread subject is taking a crack at the guy - why do so many find it a surprise he defends himself???

Michael

So is Carbon expensive or not; you KEEP stating that carbon drives up the cost of boats and then state you got Carbon stuff including a MAST (that you constantly state is expensive) for Aus 2500....



So is Carbon expensive or not?

Expensive if you pay retail. Luckily I have long and commercially viable relationships with many suppliers and as such I was able to leverage those relationships to build my fun boat for a very low cost.

I don't think its even possible to debate whether Carbon is more expensive than alloy. A 5 year old can look at the price lists and give you the correct answer.

I think you have hit the nail..

With the Vipers speed I would suggest the speed has no small tribute to the crews.

one of the strengths and reasons the class was founded was the light weight..

Whenever any manufacturer brings in a bunch of Pro sailors and gives them a new, free ride, the Pro's always win, that's why they are Pros.

The Pro's however do not spend money or time developing the class, they are on to the 'next big thing' which right now, in the cat world, I guess, is the F16's.

Some of the monohull classes have figured out this is not necessarily a good thing for overall class development, it just pissses off the real class members who have devoted a lot of time and money to the class, only to get butt-whipped by some pro on a free new boat, which is why some classes have gone to "Owner Driver" rules. It might be time to consider doing the same in our class.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-pro. Everything I know about cat racing I've picked up from "pro's" at one regatta or another, and I always like it when they show up and teach us how to go faster.

What bothers me is when a "Pro" shows up and tells a class what their rules should be, with zero time or money invested in the class, and then all the real owners have to...carry weight?? YGTBSM!

You don't see any of the other Pro's who have raced the F16's on here telling us how to run our class, do you?

Makes me wonder what the real motivation is for Macca and who he's really working for. Or is he looking for "work" ie. a free ride, he wants to be the "F16 World Champion" (BFD) but he's worried some 10kg. -lighter- F16 is going to stomp him on his factory sponsored free Viper or Hobie or Nacra F16?

Macca, the class rules are set, you can play by our rules or go away and sail something else, our loss...?

I agree with one of the Pros who, when asked about the weight issue after the GC, said, "It's a development class, let it develop." Raising the weight doesn't encourage better building for a lighter boat, it only dumbs it down. Cheaper? Perhaps, but "better"?

I haven't looked. How are the ordinary mortals doing in the Taipn v Blade v Falcon v Viper challenge? Any meaningful trends starting to show up? Is there enough data to draw any meaningful assumptions?

WOUT! Where are you buddy?

Wow! This thread is turning into an epic.

Andrew, from the brief chat that we had at Carnac, I discern you to be basically a nice guy who likes his sailing. You also (occasionally) seem to make a valid point or two. As you've pointed out, this forum is a discussion board and some of the discussion in this thread is genuinely interesting - I won't go into what the rest of it is - so discuss away but please don't expect the class rules to change in favour of any particular builder anytime soon.

"Expensive if you pay retail. Luckily I have long and commercially viable relationships with many suppliers and as such I was able to leverage those relationships to build my fun boat for a very low cost."

So what you are selling in this story is by virtue of your “charismatic personality” you have major carbon fiber manufactures giving you better prices for carbon cloth for your boat than they are willing to give a viable boat manufacture with global sales capability?...What boat manufacture buys materials for retail? And why do you always have to go to the most expensive and extreme building technique for your examples? Autoclave and pre-preg.
What about John Lindahl building three A Cats...LR2 and LR3, their third boat weighing in at 15 lbs underweight with just hand layup carbon cloth, not even vacuum bagged, let alone pre-preg...His son sailed it to the top of a competitive A-class fleet in Florida a few months ago.

Your tactics are typical of our world today in that facts mean nothing to you...You play on the concept that if you consistently tell the same exaggerated falsehoods over and over again, after a while you will get weak minded people to believe it. The sad part of it all is how effective that technique is on the large population of those who can’t be bothered to think for themselves.

The F16 class appears to be doing fine with quite a bit of growth Worldwide. AHPC while they have an active marketing program and are placing the best teams on their boats as part of that plan, are not the only players. Matt M, while he is separated from Vectorworks, with the combination of Blades and Falcons is up around 70+ boat last I heard. FCA, Stealth etc are out there and a number of new models are being introduced and are being or going to be built here shortly.

1 kilo of carbon weighs the same as 1 kilo of glass. All the advanced processes and materials in the world will not build an F16 less than 107 kg (2 up) as that is the class min. Carbon sticks are in service and with the min tip weight have not proven to be any game changer. This fear of an unlimited million dollar craft destroying the class is a bit far fetched.

In the case of macca, this is either the pathetic fence banging exercise, or he has motivation for a purpose, whether friendship or for financial gain to continually bring up the same rehashed subject.
AHPC has elected, for their own reasons, to build a boat that is heavy. At this time both the class and the Viper are gaining from each other. AHPC though is also pushing the 104 for their boat along with the F16. The Viper is being promoted and provided to the best teams as part of their marketing plan. B2, Robbie Daniels, etc. The other brands are being raced (if raced at all) by weekenders and there is not any program out there promoting any of the other models per say.

If 104 gets is act organized and takes off then the Viper may fit in. If 104 continues to flounder and F16 takes off as a racing class eventually better teams will be riding other makes and maybe macca’s continued harping about saving the class from some imaginary event is really about saving the Viper from obsolescence?

"The other brands are being raced (if raced at all) by weekenders and there is not any program out there promoting any of the other models per say."

A number of the weekenders have begun attending coaching camps and I plan to join them. As time and money are limited I will begin dropping the older, familiar regattas in favor of those that have coaching opportunities associated with them.

I agree with Mini, so maybe we need a "Pro" division and a "weekender" division, or a Pro-Am regatta, like in golf?

Thats it timbo. Bust the class up into smaller and smaller divisions until you win something. Forget about trying to learn something from people like Macca. NOT!

We get some sensible veiwpoints from some unbiased outsiders but just ignore them and then its straight back into Macca and Viper bashing from the same clowns. Pathetic.