With all due respect JW, the reasons WHY we want an updated sail plan can all be different. What we all want is ... an updated sail plan. (I certainly haven't heard anyone say that they want to keep what we've got in this thread or in person)

Openning up the sails to every loft under the sun wont work IMO for reasons I've already stated.

Incredibly well said Jake, even though it may hurt a little.

How about this for a reason.Compare an F18 DPN with a N20 DPN , there's a problem here.If the f18s are faster boats why don't corrections reflect this?
Hence, the reason I would like a new sail design is to maximize the potential the platform has(through expendable goods) and give it a better chance of sailing to it's number.

p.s. But don't get the thought that I like getting beat by a 2 foot shorter boat(any boat). I don't.

Are F18s faster around a bouys course or just better broad or close reaching in a distance race? I'm guessing that many of the results that are used for the hadicap system are or were based on bouys racing, which probably really is limited data.

I don't believe that the portsmouth data is "limited" but is, instead, focused on a particular type of racing (not distance). Which is why it's kind of a crap shoot to use it for distance racing.

what I was thinking and you said it better, thanks.

I like(ed) the boat for several reasons:

• Good overall design
• Decent amount of boats out there with sailors who use them. A bonus is having top talent out and about to provide benchmark performance levels and help out with on-water advice ( I think this is the key to any class being successful over the long haul)
• Construction is a decent blend of performance and durability. It ain't bulletproof like the old solid-fiberglass bricks of the 80's, and it's not a super high-tech featherweight like the Acat which dings if you look at it funny
• The ability to sail with as few or as many "tweeks" as you like. Not as complicated as all of the stuff you can tweek on a Star (for example), but more adjustability than a Laser.
• Reasonably forgiving to middle-fleet sailors who like the performance but don't really have the talent to drive much more than a sheet of plywood
• Somewhat based on one-design concept so I don't have to continually update the platform if I want to get closer to the top end of the fleet. I don't necessarily agree with SMOD, but I do like the one-design concept theory
• Cost to get into the class isn't exhorbitant, although since the boats do seem to last a long time despite hard use, it's difficult to find a lot of used boats out there. They do hold their resale value pretty well, too.

So, I think to grow the class we need to retain these factors and adapt the platform to retain top level talent. Would improving the sailplan achieve this while not entirely alienating the "restofus"?

Flatter sails and a wing mast... would this improve performance across the wide range of conditions we sail in, Or would this type of thing actually narrow the performance window? Would it require more expertise to tune the sailplan correctly for the conditions? This could further frustrate mid-pack sailors (or give them more excuses)

I know that I sailed both light (325 soaking wet) and heavy (400+ before breakfast)with the same sailplan, and thought I was reasonably competitive under most moderate conditions (8-20 kts TWS and low-moderate chop) using the adjustments available on the platform.

In 95% of the regattas it wasn't the boat's fault that we ended up where we did in the finish list.

I wasn't trying to start a portsmouth discussion, we all know it sucks for distance. My point was on a rated course the 18 is rated slower but doesn't appear to be. This is directed at the sailplan of the boats not the validity of the numbers compared to what type of racing.
2 feet of waterline is a huge advantage that doesn't seem to be anymore. I don't believe the hullform is so outdated, as a 12 year old sailplan in a 12 years of progressive sail development. The F-18 to me is a benchmark, it has great numbers and many of the sailors on F18s I have raced against on N20s, therefore I know how they do on both boats. I firmly believe a 2 foot longer boat should be faster than a similar type boat. With the different hullforms in F18 alone, I think ,Through process of elimination it points to the sails on the N20 as being the weak link.Most of what I'm comparing is the infusion to the N20,because that's mostly what I've raced against.The hullshape is definitely better on the infusion ,but not to the extent of the performance differences I've seen.This says sails to me.

Again this is not a portsmouth debate or a shitslinging match with F18s. I JUST USE THE f18 AS A BENCHMARK BECAUSE IT'S A VERY GOOD ONE TO USE.

This is just my opinion. You didn't pay for it and you got your money's worth.
The Todd

I tried to get a refund at Walmart. They told me that they don't sell rubbish :P



Who called you this? I need to slap them.


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Todd and I have similar thoughts here.

I still feel that you're doubling-down on a tenuous premise. F18s are doing better against N20s around the cans for two reasons, IMO; In order - firstly, the F18s are working harder. More teams are getting coaching and coordinating event attendance, tuning tips, and practice. This is very stark in SoCal. A very distant second, the F18 sails are moving forward in design. There have been three new sail developments on my boat since 2006. That isn't pell-mell at all - it is a pretty measured pace.

Bottom line, I think that the F18 number will drop a little whenever the Portsmouth Committee is reconstituted, and the N20 number will stay static. But I think there is too much emphasis here on performance between the two classes and the N20 sails when deciding priorities for the future of the class. There is a tremendous distance between wanting some modernization for the health of the class and wanting to beat a completely different boat across the line. And which F18 are you going to chase? They each have their quirks, strong points and weaknesses...

I'm sure Trey is muttering about "skin in the game" again... honestly, I continue to want to see all cat classes thrive and I would never speak up unless I thought it were important to reconsider the line of reasoning.

JDub,

Like I said - it matter not what the REASON for the requested change is. People in the class all want an updated sail plan for one reason or another.

And "skin in the game" is applicable here. You long ago abandoned the N20 class for the F18.

It does indeed matter what the reason is, as that should dictate how and what changes are made. You presented a whole new reason today that I'd not heard before - the way to achieve what you want is very different than what Jake said he wants, even though the sail plan is a common denominator.

I'm a multihull sailor. I have more skin in the game than you.

J-dub,
You need to read my post previous to this.It answered a bunch of your questions.
As far as the health of the class, beating the F-18s IS what is needed, that's where we are loosing class members.No need to dance around it, but I still see the F18 as the closest benchmark to work towards.
JW ,you and I will never agree on this because I'm as passionate about the N20 as you are F18.I still love ya.

Is Tad that guy that moaped around Hartwell for 20 minutes Sunday afternoon? I thought that Thadeus guy actually sailed occasionally.

J-dub your right about the different approaches.
The funny thing is the way to achieve what Tad want's is to do what he and his team doesn't want to do. Open up the sails.

Just offering my opinion, which like yours can't be found at WalMart. If the Class feels it has covered the angles, then "good onya."

I'm not going to reply to you any further JDub. No offense, but this is not a matter in which I think non-N20 sailors should be stirring the pot.

Keith on the other hand, has some very good questions and I think that he should expand on his thoughts. Unfortunately opening up the sail plan completely I don't think would work very well like it has in the most established formula classes - BUT I'm willing to listen to his proposals.

What I WOULD be interested is a genuine bonefide sailmaker chiming in here and giving us some estimates on what he expects a sail development program would cost, and what he would stand to make in the market if we were to try and open it up completely.

That's all I'm sayin'.

Unfortunately, you can't really cover all the angles.
I see 3or 4 camps in this debate: Those that want to drag out the process to make it affordable. Those that want as fast a platform as possible now.(me)
And then you get the distance/buoys question on top.
I don't think everyone can/could or will be completely happy.As Keith or Jake said earlier, if beating the F18 is the goal a stepped roll out of SMOD sails won't work because your using a fixed solution to try to beat a ongoing development.
All of this is semantics anyway, You'll never get a consensus to open the sails up unless the factory does something drastically bad to force the issue, which would be counterproductive for them.
So basically a stepped rollout is what we get. If that doesn't get me where I want to be I'll get my sails where I want ,put in curved foils,make wider carbon beams and get a Hall mast and race Portsmouth. Easy Peasy lemon squeezy.

Speak for yourself, I think JW's input is good.
I also think Keith has some great points but it is not going to be possible to satisfy everyone.

And if you build that beast, where does all your passion for the Class go, Todd? When Smith started down that path, he took a lot of criticism - no matter what his motivation, it wasn't good to see those fractures among N20 teams.

I know that reading is something new to you, but I was pretty sure that I said "...a matter in which I think non-N20 sailors..."



Yet you're facilitating it here. And for nothing more than your own amusement I'm guessing since this sail plan development discussion has nothing to do with your beloved F18 racing in So-cal (other than maybe you wont have such an easy time beating them old school N20's on corrected time if they actually get new sails)