Gentlemen,

There are TWO basic rules in the RRS that supersede all other rules:

1) Competitors are required to render ANY and ALL Assistence needed to anyone (or vessel) in distress!!!

2) ALL COLLISONS are to be avoided !!!!

Any questions .... anyone????

Mike/Brucat is quite correct in his interpitation of the rules and his philosophy towards the rules ... no matter who THINKS they have the "Right of Way" in the final analysis a "Captain's" responsibility is .... SAFETY!!!!! Not to win or even finish the race.

FIRST ... LAST ... ALWAYS SAFETY !!!!!

So ... if you are the "RoW" vessel, avoid the collison, hail "Protest" ... and if they do not do their penalty, bring them in front of the "Protest Committee" ... remember the "RoW" vessel gets to determine what is "Too Close" ....

Harry

how about a REALLY REALLY offset mark!

That's would then be "B mark".

No, and no it's not.

you didn't watch race 2 of the Americas cup then?

This is entirely correct. I was about to say the same thing until I came across this post. I'm not going to quote further, but I agree with everything else Mike said as well.

If you really, really want to change the basic right-of-way rules, you could claim you are testing proposed rule changes under RRS 86.3, but then US SAILING limits you to local races unless you get their prior written permission for each event (and other restrictions apply).

Regards,
Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge,
Member Area D Appeals Committee

Also,

You can't just change it for the F16's and then expect all the other classes that share the same race course to abide by your rules. You can't have different classes of boats using different right of way rules on the same body of water at the same time. THATS dangerous.

I thought he was talking about any spinnaker boats, not just F16's?

The "avoid collision at all costs" should cover it though.

that comment was in regards to:



this.

One of the main reasons that the weather (or offset) mark is a dangerous place with spinnaker boats is that the crews are so busy hoisting the kite and adjusting things, they may be more likely to take their eyes off the road.

While this won't fix all the problems, one major help here is to have a separate (longer) weather mark (and offset) for the spinnaker boats. Won't help much in a 50-boat spinnaker fleet, but will help a ton in mixed fleets.

There are other issues that can happen elsewhere on the course that cannot be easily addressed with rule changes. The primary one is spinnaker boats on the edge of control when it's blowing like stink. They have to bear off (a lot sometimes), which can be unexpected for boats going upwind.

Anyway, I'm tired but my point is that I emphasize with this issue, and didn't want to sound preachy in my prior post. But, as others have mentioned, the worst thing on a course (for all of us) is any boat that is sailing around, knowing that they can't see. At that point, snuff the spinnaker, or buy a boat that you can actually control.

Mike

The other thing Ice Boats have experimented with is having Darling marks on the course.Prevents boats from rounding weather mark and gybing right away onto starboard.Also prevents boats from coming in right on the port tack layline,or coming in hot on the starboard layline downwind.

That's what an offset mark is - and we already have them......

Hi group,
Rules are rules, and when you change them I think that alone can cause trouble-Geeze in this regatta do I yield or not? You can either sail a triangle that sometimes turns into a simple drag race, or follow the rules and yield,change course, drop the spin, whatever it takes to keep clear of a boat that has rights. Common sense also rules-if you are in last place in your class and six spin boats are screaming into the mark-maybe the prudent thing to do is swing a little wide.Been there done that while snaking about trying to figure that wild thing out.
Regards to all.
Ken

No, Darling marks are not just offset marks.The weather Darling mark is placed down wind and to the right (looking upwind) of the weather mark.The leeward darling is placed upwind and to the left of the leeward mark.You are not allowed to sail between the mark(called turning bouy) and darling mark.
Keep in mind Ice boats are going 40-70 M.P.H.,when you have a collision you are losing more then just gelcoat.

so the darling marks are basically offset marks but on the approach to the mark - not on the departure side?

The way I'm reading it - which may be wrong, wouldn't that eliminate the port layline approach to the windward mark?

Yes but they acomplish two thinks.By always passing the darling marks on the left,you avoid having boats crash in on the laylines,and you also avoid having boats tack or gybe after rounding a mark.
Not suggesting this for soft water sailing (probably too much work for race commitee),but it really avoids head on collisions,especially important when sailing ice boat angles.

how about someone who port tacks the layline to the windward mark and who is ducking the left side darling mark with a windward spinnaker boat rounding it?

Same situation happens just at a different mark.

yeah, I know...
This sport isn't completely 100% safe and never will be. As much as anyone messes with the windward mark- with offsets, "pre" offsets before the mark there is still the rest of the course. Driving at spring fever required a lot of situational awareness. It only takes one head in the boat moment dealing with a fouled jib sheet/downhaul/rotator to lose that awareness. I still have those moments of "crap, I just gybed and I am not sure I really checked my 6 o'clock."
anyway... we all gotta trust each other and maintain as much situational awareness as possible.

as a guy who races only a few times a year (and have only skippered 1 time)... it might be beneficial to have a "newbee skippers meeting" pre or post the regular skippers meetings at events to go over some rules/situations to be esp on the look out for. I admit i know few only a few rules, and much of what was said here is over my head...