Eric,

thank you for a concise and easy to follow interpretation of the rules.

Your summary was/is very helpful!

Getting back to the original topic,
A boat is expected to maintain a lookout at all times, even when setting a spinnaker. Lapses of attention can be hazardous anywhere on the course.

I don't quite follow that logic, at least for catamarans. Spinnaker cats generally sail much deeper than sloop and uni-rigs. If different types of catamarans rounded the same mark, the spinnaker boats would tend to sail below the non-spins. After that, things are not really different than anywhere on the downwind leg. What am I missing?

This is why boats sailing downwind in heavy air jealously guard their escape lane to leeward. If another boat occupies that lane, the windward boat will often gybe away. This holds true for non-spin boats as well - and even monohulls that sail hot angles downwind. I don't think any rule changes are needed.

Absolutely! Sailing blind is an invitation to disaster. Keep a good lookout; know what boats are nearby; and make a plan to keep clear before the boats actually meet.

Regards,
Eric

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Great data, thanks Eric.
of course my "cinder-block" was a joke, but it certainly would be a "gross breach of sportsmanship" (IMHO)

Thanks, - here is a link
http://www.sailing.org/20348.php

Fwiw, my intentions in starting this thread was to prevent someone getting a punctured lung from a spin pole.

I had a coach who gave us some idea.....

If you have not started to take action to take your pen in the time it takes you to look at the mainsail; look upwind and down, tell the crew and then start; you are in danger of not being quick enough. (this was for Ollies / worlds sailing).

It essentially menas you have time to look for a place to do the turn adn then DO IT NOW. More than 10 seconds to start doing something and you MIGHT get a DSQ.

Well, the primary reason for the longer mark is to fix timing issues (target times for the various speed boats in a mixed-class event), so that the slower boats don't have to do a one-lap race (exaggerating, but you get the idea). But, it has the added advantage of reducing the number of boats rounding the weather mark with spinnaker boats. As you and I pointed out, this can't fix all the problems, but in my experience, it helps a lot.

Mike

Yes, quite possibly I misunderstood your statement. Perhaps it is the programmer in me. I read "==" as the identity operator. So, while doing a turn before the finish is a necessary condition for exoneration, it is not a sufficient condition. In other words the timepoints encompassed by, "as soon as possible" is a subset of "before finishing", but the two are not identity sets. Therefore "doing them ASAP" is not the same as "before the finish".

If you meant "I did the penalty ASAP", then you are ok. If you meant "I did the penalty before the finish", then you are not. I read your statement as the second.

Technically, all penalties taken under Rule 44.2 must occur before finishing. If you break a rule of Part 2, or rule 28.1, or rule 31 after finishing while still racing, you may take a penalty or correct the error - after which you must "finish" again.

In fleet racing, it doesn't make sense to talk about taking a penalty "before the finish". RRS 44.2 requires that the turn(s) take place "as soon after the incident as possible".

Regards,
Eric

Pete, as I mentioned in a prior post, I emphasize with you and agree that there are sometimes some crazy situations, but as others have pointed out, rules can't prevent everything, and the rules in place limit how we can change them.

Do you have a suggestion for a better rule, and can you work it through the system for a change? While it may seem onerous, the system in place is great, because it requires lots of people to review and think about suggested changes, which often brings out (and hopefully prevents) unintended consequences.


Mike

I think the "problem" with the "Leeward boat has right of way" rule here is, the boat coming upwind (the leeward boat, or ROW) has the best view of what's going on, as he's looking upwind in the first place and he's not got a big spinnaker blocking his view.

The 'burdened boat' is coming downwind with the spin up, blocking at least part of his downwind view, and the skipper is most likely looking upwind for a puff to chase, not always looking downwind for traffic.

If the ROW boat was at one time well clear, but then tacks, and the burdened boat never see's him tack, and now the ROW is in the spinnaker blind spot, well, it can get very interesting, very quickly.

I know when I'm the ROW boat, going upwind, I never assume the spin guy coming down sees me, and I'll gladly tack to get out of his way...more so if it's blowing and he's hauling butt. I don't want to end up "Dead Right".

I think it goes to the "avoid a collision at all costs" rule.

Nice post! It asks a key question and gets us back on the original topic. I'm curious to see what proposals come out of it. Personally, I am skeptical how a rule change can help the problem of not keeping a good lookout, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Regards,
Eric

Simply change it to say, when two boats meet and one is coming downwind under spinnaker, and the other is going upwind with only a mainsail and/or jib, the spinnker flying boat has the right of way.

Or use the bumper sticker version:

"Tack now, or risk certain death"

I don't really see this as a spinnaker issue, or even a catamaran issue, since the same problems exist with jibs and on monohulls. The problem seems to be the speeds involved - it's possible to get in trouble fast. At higher speeds, you need to look and plan farther ahead.


A boat must keep a good lookout, spinnaker or no. If the skipper ignores downwind traffic to watch upwind puffs, then he's likely to get into trouble no matter what the rules say.


If a windward (let's assume port tack) boat sees a leeward port tack boat coming upwind disappear behind his spinnaker, he needs to watch for it to appear again. If it doesn't, he's got to actively look to see where it went. If one has to periodically round down and/or slack the chute to keep an eye on leeward boats, then that's what one must do.


That's wise. At the point where you have reasonable apprehension of contact if you don't take avoiding action - take it (see ISAF Case 50). Then protest. Rule 14 (and common sense) require you to attempt to avoid contact.


Well, Rule 14 doesn't say "at all costs". It says "A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible". Watch out for other boats, plan ahead, and avoid contact reasonably.

Regards,
Eric

I believe safety should win out. It is not physically possible to keep a good lookout on a spin boat in all cases as there is a blind spot. A boat going to weather has much better visibility; hence it should carry most of the burden.

Spinnaker has the right of way should be the rule, imo.

Further, in the interest of safety, spin and non-spin boats should be on different courses whenever possible.

What if the boats are on opposite tacks? What if the boat sailing downwind is flying a genoa or a gennaker? What if the boat flying a spinnaker is sailing on a reach instead of downwind? What if the boat not flying a spinnaker is sailing on a reach instead of upwind? What covers the case of a boat sailing downwind on a converging course but is obscured by the spinnaker?

Picture this scenerio: Three boats A, B, and C. A is sailing upwind under main and jib. B and C are sailing downwind on the same tack towards A. B is to leeward of C and not flying a spinnaker. C is to windard and is flying a spinnaker. Under this suggested rule, A has right-of-way over B. B has right-of-way over C. C has right-of-way over A. When they converge, who has to give room to whom?

I think a boat sailing upwind would likely have difficulty understanding the rules if right-of-way changed depending on the sails the other boat was using.

I wouldn't characterize this change as "simple".

Regards,
Eric

I agree. Rule 1 "Safety" and Rule 14 "Avoiding Contact" are there for that purpose.


I disagree. No matter what shape or how opaque your sails are, you are still required to keep a good lookout. Just as when driving a car, if you have a blind spot, you need to look around it frequently enough to keep track of traffic. If you can't watch where you're going, you should sail (or drive) something else.


I disagree. This rationale degenerates into worst lookout gets right-of-way. I don't think that's the right spirit to sail under. If you sail a boat with a bigger blind spot, you should accept the greater effort to look around it.


Can you suggest a wording for that rule? I have trouble seeing how it would work.


I don't understand. How is an encounter between a spin boat going downwind meeting a non-spin boat going upwind any different than a spin boat going downwind meeting a spin boat going upwind?

Regards,
Eric

Well then, to keep it "Simple", change it to 'any spinnaker boat has right of way', period. Then in your scenario, C has right of way over both A and B, and A had just better get out of the way and B can tell A he's got to have room to keep clear of C.

I don't know the history of when and why the "Leeward boat has right of way" rule was written, but I'm guessing whom ever wrote it never envisioned a fleet of spinnaker cats coming downwind at nearly 20 knots...while one boat is going upwind yelling he's got "rights", as if the spin boats can hear him anyway, or can do anything about it, when the puff is on.

Pete,

So you wish to advocate that just because you have a spinnacker on the boat that gives you the right to sail BLINDLY downwind .... OUT OF CONTROL .... ignoring your responsibility to maintain a proper lookout and to sail with-in control on the race course.

Can I assume that you also advocate the whomever has the fastest, nastiest sportscar does not have to obey the traffic laws while on the highway such as "Traffic Lights", "Stop" signs etc etc

What gives you the right to run over my niece and I on my TheMightyHobie18 when we are on the same race course and have a windward/leeward crossing w/ me being the leeward vessel????

LEARN the (current)RULES .... and sail safely as not to place ANYONE IN DANGER ... NO ONE on your vessel or others!!!!

Thad: The rule about "penalty turns" was at one time that you could wait until just before finishing to do the penalty turns .... BUT that was changed YEARS ago (10-+15yrs????) ... then it was that the penalty turns had to be done BEFORE the next mark rounding (same leg as the foul occured on) .... NOW it's at the first "SAFE" apportunity immediately after the foul (if someone on your vessel is hurt or your vessel is needs repair, you may take corrective actions first ... but before contiueing racing you must complete your penalty)

Eric: I always enjoy your posts .... hopefully someday my knowledge will come close to yours

Harry

PS: Everytime I hear of a "Racing Rules Seminar" being conducted I try to attend ... usually one or more per year!!!! I SUGGEST that everyone else should consider doing the same ... if you wish to play SAFELY in this game!!!!!

Harry:

I think you'll find that I was the one who said that you were supposed to do your circles as soon as possible.

Dear lord.

Thad,

I was just trying to prove that there was a time when you were correct about waiting to do "penalty turns" just before the finish of a race .... of course I was young and frisky then and had no grey hairs in my beard or on my head back then !!!!!

You were maybe sailing a OPTI at Tred Avon YC then too .....

I have trouble (sometimes) keeping the rule changes straight over the years .... MAST ABEAM .... Hahaha

Harry