So, how much is that doggy in the window?



Anybody know what it costs to have a boat designed? I'm sure Hobie and Nacra have to pay something to Melvin/Morrelli for every Wave or Infusion sold, but what did it cost initially
Mental masturbation, nothing more.

The last time I checked the F18's were still 2000-3000 more expensive then a F16 (and that includes the Vipers)

I guess the relationship between costs and weight is not as strong as many think it is.

Wouter

Wouter. Do you really think the cost of building an F16 is that much less than the cost of building an F18??

If so please let me know how you come to this conclusion???

Brett,

A person doesn't really have to know Newtons law of gravity in order to understand by simple observation that things fall downward instead of upwards.

I refer to my annual price comparison posts for details that support my statements.

All the rest is just smoke and mirrors.

Wouter

There have been and are small manufactures that will build an F18 for much cheaper than the volume builders. They will not have the same sort of warranty or research and development but they could put you on the water for less anyway.

Your point is Wouter?

"Lighter, stronger, faster, better is without exception more expensive. Time to be realistic."

I believe this is the statement Wouter is trying to rebut.

Wouter... my question was on the cost of building... not the retail price.

I wasn't trying to start a poop slinging match, i just want to see if you are basing your argument on anything more than retail price... it seems your not.

Brett, you are asking for a reasonable response..... holding your breath while waiting will be harmful to your health

Andrew, you are the one who is unreasonable.

Well, normally I would not enter such threat, but it looks like a reasonable debate...

Brett,

200kg of polyester and glass is more expensive than 100kg, a 10m alu mast section is more expensive than a 8m mast, alu tubes of 150mm diameter are more expensive than 80mm dia., 20sqm of sail is more expensive than 15sqm and a 10:1 main sheet is more expensive than a 7:1. Shorter lines, smaller blocks, shackles, boards, rudders, and so on. 100kg of glass and resin is faster fabricated than 200kg...
I do not see any reason, why there should not be a difference.

Of course a professional sailor and a high gloss brochure costs always the same.

As a costumer I would like to profit from the reduced costs of a smaller and lighter boat of course, so at the end of the day it is retail price what counts.

Cheers,

Klaus

Klaus, have you been able to follow Andrew's logic that a heavier minimum weight would make for a better class? It escapes me completely.

Macca is abrasive, but his premise are that by making the minimum weight heavier we will:

* make the class more attractive to more builders who can achieve this weight for a lower cost
* Lower the cost of the boats
* prevent a lone rogue building a very expensive on-shot light boat all in carbon to th eminimum specs but very rigid and kill us all around the buoys.


Klaus, what you are missing is *volume*. The more you sell the cheaper it get. If a manufacturer sells more F18 than F16 and have specific parts for both the F16 will cost more to manufacture.

Certainly if Hobie or Nacra would join, more pro sailor will join. So I understand his logic. However the class would be different.

Of course you have to invest in a mould, but the larger part is manual labour. At least for beach cats. You need no different tooling for different boats. Assume you pay 5000$ for a mould (an uneducated guess from my side), after 10 F16 boats it is just 500$, after 100 F18s it is 50$. So the difference between F18 and F16 would be 450$ per boat. Of course if you have very high overhead costs (i.e. not directly related to the production), volume makes a difference. But then why should I have mercy with a manufacturer who has his cost not under control.
And before somebody misunderstands me, I do not point against a certain manufacturer. I do just not understand the logic that lighter boats should be more expensive than heavier one.

Cheers,

Klaus

Pete: Where you being rhetorical or do you really wish to invite that which has been beaten to death.

Kris: I'm trying to figure out how to deal with this guy.

Pepin: His saying it doesn't make it so. I, for one, am simply not interested in owning a heavier boat.

Wouter has refuted his arguments, eloquently and repeatedly, yet he just doesn't get it.

What he seems to be saying is: I don't like the F16, so if those of you who own one will sail a different kind of boat, I (Andrew) would be much happier.

Does anyone know if he has a learning disability? That would explain a great deal.

Clearly, a village somewhere is missing its idiot.

Brett,




We have been living under the prediction of the sky falling down for about 8 years now and the bloody blue thing is still up there.

I'm just arguing that we shouldn't try to find solutions to problems that simply don't exist.

And yes, I am basing my arguments on more then just retail prices however there is simply no need to go into details here. Retail prices are a good indicator as no builder inside a formula class sells his boats below cost price (invite bankrupcy) and neither does he willingly price himself out of the market by overcharging.

I do regret your tendency to not value other peoples statements and knowlegde properly.

Your statement was most definately aimed at achieving a desired outcome; one that most of us here are sick of hearing by now, so please don't insult us by pretending that it wasn't.

With kind regards,

Wouter

On what does Andrew base his demand for this change? Andrew since you have a degree in marketing can you cite the studies indicating the market for this new non-F16 class so many builders are waiting to jump into?

With the number of very skilled tinkerers and hobbiests on the planet, surely one of them would have built your lightening fast, stiff beyond belief, all unobtanium rocket just as a proof of concept.

I think it far more likely that the F16 market is well met by the builders and models currently available.

I know! Your extra heavy non-F16 would be the perfect replacement for all those f17s currently being sold.

Take that and that and that you naughty boys