| Re: Is over "stiffness" of a boat that desirable
[Re: waynemarlow]
#212005 05/27/10 03:53 AM 05/27/10 03:53 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe |
I have always seen boat stiffness as a field of diminishing returns. Each progressive step (increase in stiffness) results in less gains and at some point the additional increase is simply not worth the effort (cost).
Therefore, it is my opinion that the best approach is to find a good optimum here. One where the stiffness is sufficient to provide for a nice sailing feel and good performance without going overboard with respect to say weight or costs.
Just to give an example ; a 180 kg F18 can be made very stiff and perform well with that but I doubt that any such stiffness increases are enough to results in more performance then say a slightly less stiff but 30 kg lighter platform of the same dimensions.
Boat design is always a game of balancing one benefit (or drawback) against another. The designer who does this the best will produce the boat that performs the best over a wide range of conditions and thus be most competitive in the long run.
Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: Is over "stiffness" of a boat that desirable
[Re: Wouter]
#212006 05/27/10 04:02 AM 05/27/10 04:02 AM |
Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 77 Gippsland Lakes mitchellsailor
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Posts: 77 Gippsland Lakes | in BIG boats there is still a never ending search for stiffness. Punching through waves a volvo 70 will still get a slack forestay. The latest America's cup multi's were still capable of producing more power than their structure could handle.
So scale up and stiffness becomes more of an issue.
*yes that is very "stiff"
Mosquito 1750 Bonnie-GLYC / Peninsula
The plan was simple.... Like my brother in law Phil, except this plan just might work!
| | | Re: Is over "stiffness" of a boat that desirable
[Re: mitchellsailor]
#212008 05/27/10 04:04 AM 05/27/10 04:04 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe | So scaled everything up and stiffness becomes more of an issue.
Now scale everything down (as we did on the F16's) and ... ! Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: Is over "stiffness" of a boat that desirable
[Re: waynemarlow]
#212028 05/27/10 06:42 AM 05/27/10 06:42 AM |
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn Karl_Brogger
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Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn | There is only two downsides to making a platform more stiff.
1. It generally costs you some weight 2. More fatigue on other parts. Something has to give, or at least it will more expose weaknesses in parts.
You get more of a return from stiffening up the platform, than removing weight.
Last edited by Karl_Brogger; 05/27/10 06:44 AM.
| | | Re: Is over "stiffness" of a boat that desirable
[Re: Karl_Brogger]
#212039 05/27/10 07:41 AM 05/27/10 07:41 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe | You get more of a return from stiffening up the platform, than removing weight.
You can't state that without including some quantification. I'm quite sure a F18 that is 50 kg lighter and only "invest" a 1% loss of stiffness is going to be faster overall then the regular F18. There is always a balance point to be found somewhere. A point where the effects of one change are not enough to counteract the effects of another (but linked) modification. Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: Is over "stiffness" of a boat that desirable
[Re: Karl_Brogger]
#212053 05/27/10 10:53 AM 05/27/10 10:53 AM |
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 571 Hamburg Smiths_Cat
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Posts: 571 Hamburg | ok some real life reports about stiffness:
one or two years ago, I tried to use dyneema for the shrouds. Because of the creep, I never could setup the rig as tight and stiff as with wire. It felt different, but it wasn't slow. I run the same speed, the same vmg. But the stiffer rig felt much better, more precise and predictable.
Some years ago, when I did a load of road cycling, there was a huge trend to stiffer frames claiming for a more efficient transmission. I had a stiff bike and a very flexible one. You could really feel the difference, but I could never messure any difference in speed. Funny enough, some time later, there was new trend to new super light weight wheels with 16 or so spokes. Everything you gained with the frame you lost with the wheels. Most people still was convinced that the "stiffer" bike was faster.
I remeber some peolple quoting to must have a low stretch sheet material, and now on some A-class the trend is to use a mid sheeting, supported by the floppy trampoline...
Wasn't the mast section of the Fx-1 too stiff to tune the sail adequately for a single hander? Never sailed one seriouly but was is your expierience with it?
Cheers,
Klaus
| | | Re: Is over "stiffness" of a boat that desirable
[Re: Wouter]
#212091 05/27/10 06:47 PM 05/27/10 06:47 PM |
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn Karl_Brogger
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Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn | You can't state that without including some quantification. Just repeating what I've been told by some one who knows cats well. Wasn't the mast section of the Fx-1 too stiff to tune the sail adequately for a single hander? Never sailed one seriouly but was is your expierience with it? Yes, it was too stiff, barn pole stiff in fact. I wasn't clear I guess, I was thinking more just the hulls/beams, and not neccessarily the rig. Although a flexible set of blades/rudders doesn't sound too appealling either. | | | Re: Is over "stiffness" of a boat that desirable
[Re: Karl_Brogger]
#212092 05/27/10 07:16 PM 05/27/10 07:16 PM |
Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 77 Gippsland Lakes mitchellsailor
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Posts: 77 Gippsland Lakes | So referring to bikes on a sailing forum. The stiffness was very important in the bb for power transmission and also solving the down hill wobbles a major problem with some designs. The wheels are moving so the weight savings in wheels are seen as very important- particulary the rim,tyre,tube combination as they are the furthest away from the centre of rotation. less spokes doesn't solve this problem in many cases as the rim has to be built stronger, but they look nice. Back to boats, in Australia we have carbon rudder boxes mated with foils that are heavier and more expensive than aluminium but they're popular because they have the "porn" factor
Mosquito 1750 Bonnie-GLYC / Peninsula
The plan was simple.... Like my brother in law Phil, except this plan just might work!
| | | Re: Is over "stiffness" of a boat that desirable
[Re: Karl_Brogger]
#212102 05/27/10 11:52 PM 05/27/10 11:52 PM |
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 571 Hamburg Smiths_Cat
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Posts: 571 Hamburg | I was thinking more just the hulls/beams, and not neccessarily the rig. Although a flexible set of blades/rudders doesn't sound too appealling either. Keep always one hull out of the water, than you don't need to care about stiff beams. As an aerodynamic specialist, I can tell you that you can neglect the stiffness of the boards and rudders. Catsailor are so stupid and mount tons of lead on tip of a daggerboard. So it boils down to hull stiffness, which is not a problem for beach cats with sandwich skins. I remember my Dart 18 and early Ts were a bit flexible, but nevertheless fast boats. Cheers, Klaus | | | Re: Is over "stiffness" of a boat that desirable
[Re: Smiths_Cat]
#212108 05/28/10 02:06 AM 05/28/10 02:06 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe | Wasn't the mast section of the Fx-1 too stiff to tune the sail adequately for a single hander? Never sailed one seriouly but was is your expierience with it?
Yes, that is my opinion (and another example were using an F18 component on a non F18 design didn't work out). Some consider the Superwing alu mast we have as a noodle but it sails like a dream. Especially when compared to the FX-one setup. Again, it is in de balancing between the mast and the sailcut. That is the true pathway to success. Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: Is over "stiffness" of a boat that desirable
[Re: Wouter]
#212112 05/28/10 03:38 AM 05/28/10 03:38 AM |
Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 893 waynemarlow OP
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Posts: 893 | Bike frames are quite a good example of what I am wondering about. 20 years ago we were building the first of the real MTB ( off road) bikes out of steel, really supple and bendy, gave the really poor first generation suspension a bit of hand and the overall package was a quite supple but user friendly bike. I still have the bike 20 years on and still no sign of frame breakages or stress fractures. Now I've since had two very stiff aluminium frames with pretty top class suspenders on, great bikes, but already I have broken both frames at the critical stress points. My latest frame is built like a barn door weighs a ton but is considered to pretty bullit proof, and then I look at my skinny little lightweight bendy steel frame and think have we got things right here. | | | Re: Is over "stiffness" of a boat that desirable
[Re: sail7seas]
#212242 05/29/10 11:31 AM 05/29/10 11:31 AM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 42 45degApparent
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Posts: 42 | The Tornado got faster, as they got stiffer. Sounds like you are saying that tornados got faster because they were built stiffer. Can you prove it? Tornado teams from the 84 games through 92 are still undecided. For those who dont know those years were the transition period. State of the art was Gougeon cold moulded hulls and small diam beams. The boats from Goran was not faster in the beginning but they did not break all the time. The boats from sweden might also have been just a tiny bit faster in chop but the difference was probably in the maxed hull volume of those hulls. What killed the woodies and small diam beams were not performance but reliability, and initially price. Keeping the rig stable is what makes the difference. I have not seen theoretical or real life proof on what is faster. A platform that bends and moves softly in seas or a stiff one bouncing and crashing through waves. In flat water it makes no difference at all. Sailors are like sheep at times, following the leader instead of asking the whys and hows. Bundy is smarter than jumping into this. There is no winning game here, only ways to loose business. The rest of the AHPC gang should take note and act as if they had brains. And by the way. Those cold moulded cedar hulls from 83 are still as stiff if not stiffer than Gorans spaceships and still at min weight. Talking about carbon masts, carbon hulls and carbon crap is pretty silly. Good engineering and skilled builders is what it takes to build anything good. Even wood can outperform a fresh engineer who throws carbon at whatever challenge he see. Set untrained farmers to laminate hulls and it takes half a year before they have the skills. Then they are due a raise so they get replaced. What really is discussed here is how to maximize profits. The rest is smoke, mirrors and spin as Wouter says. Smart butt spin doctors making stir fry to paint a pig. I would buy US made at min weight. | | | Re: Is over "stiffness" of a boat that desirable
[Re: 45degApparent]
#212273 05/30/10 01:59 PM 05/30/10 01:59 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 1,021 Australia macca
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Posts: 1,021 Australia | The Tornado got faster, as they got stiffer. Sounds like you are saying that tornados got faster because they were built stiffer. Can you prove it? Tornado teams from the 84 games through 92 are still undecided. For those who dont know those years were the transition period. State of the art was Gougeon cold moulded hulls and small diam beams. The boats from Goran was not faster in the beginning but they did not break all the time. The boats from sweden might also have been just a tiny bit faster in chop but the difference was probably in the maxed hull volume of those hulls. What killed the woodies and small diam beams were not performance but reliability, and initially price. Keeping the rig stable is what makes the difference. I have not seen theoretical or real life proof on what is faster. A platform that bends and moves softly in seas or a stiff one bouncing and crashing through waves. In flat water it makes no difference at all. Sailors are like sheep at times, following the leader instead of asking the whys and hows. Bundy is smarter than jumping into this. There is no winning game here, only ways to loose business. The rest of the AHPC gang should take note and act as if they had brains. And by the way. Those cold moulded cedar hulls from 83 are still as stiff if not stiffer than Gorans spaceships and still at min weight. Talking about carbon masts, carbon hulls and carbon crap is pretty silly. Good engineering and skilled builders is what it takes to build anything good. Even wood can outperform a fresh engineer who throws carbon at whatever challenge he see. Set untrained farmers to laminate hulls and it takes half a year before they have the skills. Then they are due a raise so they get replaced. What really is discussed here is how to maximize profits. The rest is smoke, mirrors and spin as Wouter says. Smart butt spin doctors making stir fry to paint a pig. I would buy US made at min weight. This thread is awesome, you are seriously debating if stiffer is slower? Then we have the theory that wood is as good as carbon to build a boat with?? try building a M20 in wood at the same weight and stiffness... I heard that Groupama are looking at wood as an solution for their new VO70 and BMWO are planning to limit the use of exotic woods for the next americas cup.... If you seriously think that you can build the same weight for weight stiffness in wood compared to carbon then you are certainly on drugs.. | | |
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