no you have it backwards... before the start.. you can only take them up to close hauled... after the start you can luff them to head to wind.

See above for proper course...

really? I know you have a lot more experience than me, but I thought I had that one down!

edit: just tried to look it up and didn't find anything specific about it and didn't see anything about prior to vs after the start

The relevant rule is 17:

So if you are racing and try to overtake from underneath (lee side) you cannot luff someone up. If you are being overtaken to windwards, then you can luff the windward boat up (provided you give them room to keep clear).

There is no 'proper course' before the start - so you can luff a boat head to wind. Once the gun goes off, your proper course is close hauled.

I'm not sure if Mark is not just yanking your chain.
Chris.

Chris.

Thanks Chris,
any difference between prior to and after start?

I just edited my reply to answer that. Pre start - luffing OK. Post start - not OK if overtaking from clear behind.

BUT remember the leeward boat will USUALLY define what proper course is. So if a high pointing boat is sailing up under you; it is THEIR proper course that defines what is Valid; thus if you are sailing a low pointing boat; be ready to tack away. Second; if you are windward boat and disagree with them on proper course; you still have to avoid them and take them too the room;

Finally remember that proper course is something that is REASONABLE and follws the definition of what proper course is (in summary the course you qould sail to get to the mark QUICKEST in the absence of other boats; this MIGHT include sailing to gusts!

Agreed. Hobie 16s would be wise to watch for A-Cats climbing up underneath them in mixed fleet racing for example.

Been there before....the "you don't want to be there" warning was followed by "why?" and after a quick pointing demonstration right after the gun goes off, the H16 says "holy crap, you weren't kidding!".

OK, so I spoke with a Senior Judge (who happens to be an International Umpire) this weekend about the original scenario. He confirmed my original position on this.

He said that regardless of (and in part, especially because of) the handling characteristics of the spin boat, that does NOT entitle them to claim they were unable to keep clear if they capsize. Such a boat should expect to be headed up to the moon, and if they decide to overtake to windward, should leave enough space so they can avoid capsizing when the leeward boat brings them up.

Mike

Good news.... Common sense leads you to the proper answer (as well as a careful reading of the rules)

Boat's ahead of you have the right to protect their position. That's the game we play period. If you attempt a pass by going for their wind... you have to keep clear... Snuffing the chute (because you must to stay upright) is just part of the passing boat's move.

Mind you... the probability of this working is small.
So... figure out the timing of the dive move... or plan to set up high for a clear passing lane.

That begs for the question:
If a non-spin boat takes up a spin boat and the spin has to be dropped. If the head of the spin fouls the leeward boat when it blows off for the douse. Did the leeward boat give room for avoidance?

I think that question has been answered. You're focusing on the wrong part of the equation.

Mike

Playing devils advocate here.

As burdend boat does not have to anticipate what a ROW boat will do; Thus; you cannot ASSUME the leeward boat WILL luff; you just have to react to it; thus I would STILL argue that room means room to drop the kite if needed.

You're free to argue anything you'd like, but in this case, it appears that you would lose.

If you know your boat needs so much space to safely round up, you need to leave that much space if you pass someone to leeward (on their windward side). The rules are simply not intended to protect the passing boat.

Mike

But the rules are there to avoid collissions; if the windward boat is FORCED to capsize on top of the leeward boat; the leeweard boat did not give them enough room to keep clear.....

Remember I am playing devils advocate...

Hi Scooby,

I have several points to make that I hope will help you and others understand this basic Right Of Way (R-O-W) rule 11; When boats on the same tack are overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat. (that is the actual wording) So the burden is mandatory on the windward boat. That is limited in this case by rule 16 which requires the R-O-W boat to give the other boat room to keep clear. This has all been pointed out already but since room is a defined word it is also a rule. It is "The space a boat needs in the existing conditions while manoeuvring PROMPTLY in a seamanlike way. I emphasized the word "promptly" because that seals the deal against your devil's advocate position. You must not only respond to the luff but you must do it promptly (no excuses). You must be prepared to handle your boat promptly in a seamanlike way at all times. It is not seamanlike to capsize, shrimp the spinnaker, teabag while trapeezing, steer erratically with your foot on the tiller, etc. That may happen at times with any of us, but it is not an "out" with the rules. They explicitly state what is required and that IS something that you need to anticipate no matter what your course.

The first and main purpose for the RRS is to make racing safe. It is not safe to require a R-O-W sailor to know how every different boat on the race course may handle. It IS safe to require every sailor to know how his own boat may handle so it is up to that sailor to allow himself the room necessary in the existing conditions to maneuver safely and responsibly near R-O-W boats.

In rereading the earlier posts, it still strikes me that several racers thought that the windward boat in this scenario was O.K. to pass close to weather of the leeward boat. I hope everyone now understands that to be a high risk maneuver. Matt McDonald described the classic tactic for the faster boat to qickly pass through to leeward but it seems to have escaped attention. Most experienced racers WOULD anticipate a sloop rigged boat luffing an overtaking spinnaker rigged boat even though the rules do not require that as you correctly wrote. The rules also do not require the leeward boat from anticipating that the windward boat may not manoeuver promptly in a seamanlike fashion but, again, most experienced racers WOULD so that they can be ready for the consequences (read rule 14). I hope this helps.

I did this maneuver in low wind. In higher where a gust can force you to bear away without warning I would never have attempted to get that close.

The main reason I was too close is that we just both passed the mark and there was not enough distance between the mark and the passing point for me to separate on any side. My choices were to make a speedy run on top of him, or stop below him because there was no way I was going to build enough speed to pass through the wind shadow: have you seen the size of the P19 sails?

In retrospect I should have delayed my mark rounding, by going further away before jybing, building separation so I could go under him outside his wind shadow.

OK, but I would argue that to maneuver a spinnaker so you can sail to windward in a seamanlike way would be to drop said spinnaker...not flip the sucker.

I think this is a 50/50 proposition...maybe 60/40 in favor of the leeward non-spin boat. It's going to come down to the judge until we have an exemplified interpretation.

I'm with Jake on this - unless someone can pull a relevant example out the casebook.

Where in the rules does it state a boat has to anticipate what another might do and PLAN for avoiding action?

You state yourself that the wording is “promptly”; not “anticipate”

IF I got into the position(and I would try not to, remember I am playing devils advocate), I would still be saying “to manoeuvre promptly, the first thing I will need to do is PROPTLY drop my Spi ONCE THE LUFF HAS STARTED”