sorry - I didn't mean to make that sound so condescending...but the main crux of the problem from which Portsmouth AND the Multihull Committee suffers from isn't necessarily fixed by going to one of these other systems. They still require volunteer effort.

So I drive 700 miles to a regatta and I have to pack up and go home because someone tried to cheat the handicap system? I think I would rather race against the cheater. But then again....I'm not going to drive 700 miles to race under handicap. Damn, you guys have made me a one design Natzi.

No. You go back to the beach and see what happens. When people ask you about it, you TALK to them.

How many cheaters were revealed at Racine? How much equipment was disallowed from inadvertent error? Is the effort worth the result?

I'm just sayin'.

btw, didn't the A Class employ "justice in the sand" awhile back?

As said before, Texel has a huge database already. Measurement would only be applied at major regattas (Nationals or North Americans where it is done already) and Alter Cup qualifiers if needed. We already do not measure at my area Alter Cup qualifier and presume everyone is sailing according to their "class".

Where can I find it?

http://www.knwv.nl/zeilen/Content.aspx?sid=2&cid=129&mid=&mnu=241

In my experience with cats, people generally follow the rules. If someone shows up with a modification at an open class event, they tend to be fully up-front about it.

The only equipment issues (including some protests) that I recall seeing have been regarding boat/crew corrector weights (and needing to keep the corrector weights on the boat for the entire event), and the infamous centerboard line length for the H17. There was also the issue with the mast cap at a H16 event in South America (new style cap on non-comptip mast).

Then there was the guy who removed his Hot Stick and started swinging it at a fellow competitor on the water in a drifter, but that was a different issue (and 69 hearing) altogether...

Mike

Well, the Isotope apparently is in the 1% of racing catamarans that do not have a rating (in either SCHRS or Texel). It is an active class, however, and has current ratings under the Portsmouth Yardstick. Lacking access to a measurer, and the time/inclination to wade through the measurement process myself, that leaves only Portsmouth.

All handicapping systems are inherently inaccurate, as it is impossible to reflect a boat's sailing characteristics in all conditions with a single number (regardless of how that number is generated). Nevertheless, I still enjoy handicap racing as well as one-design.

Regards,
Eric

Kris has it.

When you enter a regatta... PN or SCHRS... you declare your rating. If you have a class legal boat.... your rating is in the table and shared by everyone else.

If you have a modified one design boat.... In portsmouth.... you declare your adjustments and calculate the 5 ratings you need using the portsmouth modifications table and present those ratings.

If you have a home built or one off design, The PN committe will guestimate your rating prior to the event and you provide that rating.

In SCHRS... you report your measurement certificate rating for your modified or one off boat which measures the rated changes you have made on your modified cat.

Some regattas... allow no adjustments to boats which effects their ratings....eg Area Qualifiers. Other events use the full PN modification table including weight adjustments.... eg SHBC Statue of Liberty race.

Substituting SCHRS will be simpler (1 rating). No difference here.

For the purpose of this debate... Which is to just change from PN to SCHRS for AREA QUALIFIERS.

There are two current restrictions on entries.

Provisionally rated boats... (eg the Nacra F20).
Modified one design classes. (eg P19 with square top main).

The restrictions on entry exist BECAUSE of the known failings and limitations of the Portsmouth PN System.

The provisional ratings are not trusted because the data is sparse. So the boat is not allowed.

Modifications are not allowed because the modifications are simply educated guesses to the magnitude of the performance gain or loss. These modifications are even more difficult to statistically measure then stock boat performance and may not translate between a hobie 16 and a Nacra 20. The consensus is that a bogus modification on a bogus Portsmouth rating was simply a bridge to far. No one believes the rating was fair. So... these boats are excluded from the Area championships.

The Alter cup committee will have a simpler job under SCHRS racing.

There will be no provisionally rated boat status. The nacra F20 has a valid unchanging world wide rating today.

Modified boats can be excluded by fiat as we currently do.

OR the Alter committee could allow modified or One Off boats to race with a valid ISAF certified rating.

Or they could allow a modified one design boat to race with a USSA Multihull measurer approved rating.... (Scooby's suggestion)

No matter what the outcome... it will be the boat owners responsibility to get the paperwork needed to race his odd ball boat in Area Championships.

As PGP noted... its a Corinthian sport.... for your local handicap regatta if you increase your main sail size... you should measure it according to the diagrams.... calculate your rating... Declare and use it when you race.

So you're proposing ratings should be based on the owner measuring their own boat? You really don't think people will have an issue with that?

In the US, handicap dingy racers also use Portsmouth (although the statistics have been kept completely separate between cats and dingies). What system(s) do the dingies elsewhere use? (laser, laser radial, flying scott, JY15, 29er, etc.).

No... I don't think they will have an issue with that..

When you BUY the new square top main for your P19... you ask the sailmaker.... Ugh... What is the SCHRS rating...

There is nothing special about measuring the sail...... they punch it into the free calculator and you have a rating that you give to the customer. If you Ding have an issue with MY mainsail... I say... No problem... there is a flat spot... pull the battens and knock yourself out double checking the sailmaker... or my measurement.... Hey.. I will even let you use YOUR RULER!

If you are organizing a very competitive handicap regatta... ask for the paperwork to be available at check in.

We trust the SMOD builders to build product that measures in... We trust them for handicap racing now.... This is no different.

(Is there some unreported problem with cheaters down south??? Or is this just a late reaction to the infamous Frankenboat or WindyHill's modified Hobie 18 with his Tiger Rig?) Both of those guys would be racing today under SHCRS and you would have one less stomach ulcer.

Let's say for a moment that my Area Qualifier is using SCHRS.

Mr. Hobie 20 wants to race and brings a cert with a provisional number and the OA says okay. Then someone says the number is bogus, protests and says they want a measurement. Protester doesn't have any of the stuff, string, 50' tape... No worries he can borrow mine... uh oh protester is not familiar with the measurement process. I have the skills but I'd rather be at the bar instead of spending 2 hours measuring someone's boat which will still end up as a provisional number. How is this better for me again?

Because mark won't be posting about Portsmouth numbers

Well, when you put it like that...

No cheating that I'm aware of. Though I was accused of having an oversized spinnaker. As soon as I was aware of the accusation, I got the sail measured and have a cert. to prove it and never leave home without out. Of course I don't talk to that individual any more.

These types of challenges are a part of any measurement system/game. Just because you have a valid measurement cert doesn't mean it can't be challenged. However, I don't think any action would be taken over a rumored challenge.

hmm... the protester has nada to do with measuring anything... nor does the protest committee.

The protester has to make his case to the protest committee. He has to provide reasonable "facts"... which would persuade the protest committee to order a remeasure of the offending sail and put the regatta standings into provisional status pending the outcome or toss they guy completely and let him appeal.

At that point... should the owner of the challenged sail find you in the bar... (not in your usual state... mind you) They can ask... Sir, would you take on measuring my sail? ... You say... Opportunity.... the going rate is 400 bucks for after bar service.... Or you say... No bueno... take it to another sailmaker on Monday and have it remeasured... It's your problem.

The OA has no problem... the Protest committee has no problem. You the knowledgeable measure guru has no problem.... the only guy with a problem is the owner of a sail that the PN committe had reason to believe was cheating.

A handicap regatta is just like your F18 regional championship or a Hobie Regatta. If a boat was protested for not having the proper F18 measurement sticker... The protest committee tosses the guy... They don't have to provide a class mesasurer on site.

Not feeling better. Still not seeing how this makes my life easier from an Area Qualifier point of view. The idea of adding something else that can put the results of the qualifier into a pending status just isn't giving me a warm fuzzy feeling.

Besides Mark it would be a total dick move to tell someone to piss off if they requested your help, so you know damn well that's not an option. Even I have limits to how big an a$$hole I'll be.

This is perhaps an oversimplification. The PC has to gather facts to determine if a class rule (in this case, a measurement rule) is broken. That may include taking testimony from those familiar with the measurement system, and possibly even conducting a measurement.


The protestor doesn't have to provide the measurement facts, he simply has to identify any rule(s) he believes were broken. The Protest Committee has to take testimony and find facts.

If, however, the PC is in doubt about the meaning of a measurement rule (including being unfamiliar with a measurement process), it shall refer its questions, together with the relevant facts, to an authority responsible for interpreting the rule. In the case of a handicap rating system, that is the organization that issued the handicap or rating certificate. See RRS 64.3(b). I believe that most Protest Committees would either defer to a measurement certificate, or order a re-measurement by the handicapping organization.


Take a look at RRS 64.3(d). It says: "Measurement costs arising from a protest involving a measurement rule shall be paid by the unsuccessful party unless the protest committee decides otherwise". So, if you protest someone for an oversize sail, and it measures in, you'll have to pay any measurement fees.


Again, an oversimplification. At an event that requires measurement, the Organizing Authority would be wise to have an official Event Measurer on hand.

I hope that helps,
Eric