| |  Re: See the F20c in person
[Re: Jake]
#221971
10/18/10 08:40 PM 10/18/10 08:40 PM |
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay Luiz 
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OK, so floating isn't THAT special...but a board that can lift a 360lb boat and two sailors while under sailing load and still be light enough to easily float in water is pretty cool.
Sorry Jake, but a density below 1 is not really a feat, especially if it is achieved using carbon/epoxy/honeycomb cured in an autoclave (supposing that this is how they are built). My not-post-cured glass/estervinylic/foam foils lift a boat that is over 2000 lb (approaching 3000 lb fully loaded) at less than $1300 each. I don't think their density is remarkable, if anything I would bragg about their price 
Luiz
| | | Re: See the F20c in person
[Re: Karl_Brogger]
#221989
10/19/10 01:53 AM 10/19/10 01:53 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia macca
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Australia | Imagine the larger size of the machined plug required to make a curved board. The material between the curvature in the plugs has to be solid. No it doesn't! dowel it, bolt it together in parts. If machined well, it would need zero touch up work at the seams beyond the polishing that would have to be done regardless. If Uncle Larry can have a Cobra chassis built out of billet aluminum, something simple like a dagger mold can't be that bad, (size wise). And have a billet aluminum chassis that can hole up to a 600hp side oiler. Rigidity is also quite important in any mold and it will require more consideration for the curved item. I wouldn't be surprised if the tooling cost for a curved board wasn't 3 or 4 times the cost of a straight board's tooling not considering the trunk. The loads can't be that bad. When I bend up laminations for curved parts I do them on particle board molds and I'm putting a huge load on the mold when its getting clamped up. I'm not sure what it actually would be, but 20 pipe clamps cranked on hard is a whole mess of pressure. If particleboard can handle the loads, something stiff like aluminum, not being loaded up at all during layup should be fine. And if it is an issue, bolt or weld some bracing to it then bolt or weld it to a stand. OK, so floating isn't THAT special...but a board that can lift a 360lb boat and two sailors while under sailing load and still be light enough to easily float in water is pretty cool. That is cool. Especially when other boards (all manufactures) have had issues with normal boards breaking. Karl, I dont understand why a ferrari costs more than a hyundai, I mean they both have 4 wheels and an engine... And let me assure you that its not possible to have a flat pack mould that bolts together... next we will have Ikea doing them! Sure, its possible to build a curved board in your backyard, but to do a production quality run with repeatability, control and warranty is not such an easy task. Look at it this way: If it was so easy then why isn't everyone out there doing it? | | | Re: See the F20c in person
[Re: macca]
#221992
10/19/10 04:04 AM 10/19/10 04:04 AM |
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 117
Cairns FNQ engineer
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Cairns FNQ | What?? Is it gang up on Macca Week???
Did I miss something???;)
Nacra 430 Rocket
| | |  Re: See the F20c in person
[Re: macca]
#221993
10/19/10 04:17 AM 10/19/10 04:17 AM |
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 266
UK Cheshirecatman
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Look at it this way: If it was so easy then why isn't everyone out there doing it?
Go faster goodies without a light weight boat = witchcraft. Must be why the F16 deity won't allow themselves near them. | | | Re: See the F20c in person
[Re: Cheshirecatman]
#222002
10/19/10 06:43 AM 10/19/10 06:43 AM |
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine ThunderMuffin
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Portland, Maine | Sorry Jake, but a density below 1 is not really a feat, especially if it is achieved using carbon/epoxy/honeycomb cured in an autoclave (supposing that this is how they are built). At only 20% greater cost than an F18 board? | | | Re: See the F20c in person
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#222008
10/19/10 07:55 AM 10/19/10 07:55 AM |
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893 waynemarlow
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At only 20% greater cost than an F18 board?
I really really hope Nacra will stick with that bit of marketing by Macca, my guess there must be a few bean counters running over profit margins and thinking someone really screwed that one up. At the sort of cost being promoted, a number of the bigger boats ( think Nacra F20 for one ) must be thinking about buying and converting to this style as the performance gain being advertised would be a huge gain for not a lot of cost. Hey all the knockers of F16 boat owners being on an open forum, this is an open forum after all and we might be just interested in the F20 to take more than a passing glance. I have no problem with Nacra producing a boat like this as my feelings are why buy a F18 which is over weight and out of date in a couple of years. | | | Re: See the F20c in person
[Re: waynemarlow]
#222012
10/19/10 08:24 AM 10/19/10 08:24 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia macca
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Australia |
At only 20% greater cost than an F18 board?
I really really hope Nacra will stick with that bit of marketing by Macca, my guess there must be a few bean counters running over profit margins and thinking someone really screwed that one up. At the sort of cost being promoted, a number of the bigger boats ( think Nacra F20 for one ) must be thinking about buying and converting to this style as the performance gain being advertised would be a huge gain for not a lot of cost. Hey all the knockers of F16 boat owners being on an open forum, this is an open forum after all and we might be just interested in the F20 to take more than a passing glance. I have no problem with Nacra producing a boat like this as my feelings are why buy a F18 which is over weight and out of date in a couple of years. [quote=Undecided ]
At only 20% greater cost than an F18 board?
Wayne, I said the board was 20% more than a new F18 board, and that's correct. Bean counters did their job and thats the price. | | | Re: See the F20c in person
[Re: Wouter]
#222015
10/19/10 08:32 AM 10/19/10 08:32 AM |
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France pepin
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France | A top of the line autoclaved carbon daggerboard for the WildCat made by Reverie UK cost €1000/£880/$1400 plus tax. Add the 20% greater cost quoted by Macca to that and the target price for a curved board on the Nacra 20 should be around €1200/£1060/$1660 plus tax.
Last edited by pepin; 10/19/10 08:45 AM. Reason: Corrected the price: my original source was completely bogus
| | | Re: See the F20c in person
[Re: pepin]
#222016
10/19/10 08:40 AM 10/19/10 08:40 AM |
Joined: Sep 2004
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+31NL Tony_F18
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+31NL | A pair of top of the line autoclaved carbon daggerboards for the WildCat made by Reverie UK cost €3500/£3100/$4850 plus tax. Note that those are a bit longer than the regular boards at 192cms.
A set of Reverie boards costs a bit less then that at £1906 (€2168) per set incl.VAT http://reverie.ltd.uk/Downloads/ReveriePriceList-Retail-11-09-2009.pdf | | | Re: See the F20c in person
[Re: waynemarlow]
#222021
10/19/10 08:58 AM 10/19/10 08:58 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Roanoke Island ,N.C. |
Hey all the knockers of F16 boat owners being on an open forum, this is an open forum after all and we might be just interested in the F20 to take more than a passing glance.
Keep that in mind while you're bitchin' about Macca commenting on F-16s in an "Open Forum". You sound like you're quite the hypocrite. Personally, I like knockers.(.)(.)
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
| | | Re: See the F20c in person
[Re: Karl_Brogger]
#222023
10/19/10 09:16 AM 10/19/10 09:16 AM |
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA SurfCityRacing
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That is cool. Especially when other boards (all manufactures) have had issues with normal boards breaking.
Karl, You're becoming so PC.  So when did this pissing match between the F16 guys and the rest of cat sailing start? I must have missed something. | | | Re: See the F20c in person
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#222024
10/19/10 09:19 AM 10/19/10 09:19 AM |
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay Luiz
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Asuncion, Paraguay | Sorry Jake, but a density below 1 is not really a feat, especially if it is achieved using carbon/epoxy/honeycomb cured in an autoclave (supposing that this is how they are built). At only 20% greater cost than an F18 board? If both boards are made with the same materials and same processes (a big IF), the justification for the extra 20% is: a) amortization of the more expensive plug b) a few extra layers of carbon c) amortization of development cost/project (but BMWO's program indirectly paid for this...) 20% might be more than enough.
Luiz
| | | Re: See the F20c in person
[Re: SurfCityRacing]
#222025
10/19/10 09:25 AM 10/19/10 09:25 AM |
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525 pgp
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So when did this pissing match between the F16 guys and the rest of cat sailing start? I must have missed something.
From the outset. There are two mind sets: 1) the world isn't big enough for another boat; 2) the more the merrier.
Pete Pollard
Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: See the F20c in person
[Re: SurfCityRacing]
#222032
10/19/10 10:09 AM 10/19/10 10:09 AM |
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893 waynemarlow
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So when did this pissing match between the F16 guys and the rest of cat sailing start? I must have missed something.
Not aware there was a start, I think you maybe are reading more into this, than there really is. | | | Re: See the F20c in person
[Re: Luiz]
#222038
10/19/10 10:49 AM 10/19/10 10:49 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake
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South Carolina | Sorry Jake, but a density below 1 is not really a feat, especially if it is achieved using carbon/epoxy/honeycomb cured in an autoclave (supposing that this is how they are built). At only 20% greater cost than an F18 board? If both boards are made with the same materials and same processes (a big IF), the justification for the extra 20% is: a) amortization of the more expensive plug b) a few extra layers of carbon c) amortization of development cost/project (but BMWO's program indirectly paid for this...) 20% might be more than enough. Look, the quality of that F20c daggerboard is, bar none, one of the highest quality foils I have encountered and in line with the customer stuff I've seen on some of the hot shot F18s and A-cats. I've designed and built composite tooling, used it, visited the Nacra Factory, sailed a **** load of Nacras and Hobies, etc. It is a deal to be able to purchase that daggerboard within 20% of the standard F18 straight boards. It is extremely well made, light, and finished. It doesn't just "barely" float either. It floats by a lot. If you guys have some sort of other "short boat" issue, take it elsewhere. It's becoming tiresome and you're starting to repeat yourselves.
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: See the F20c in person
[Re: Jake]
#222043
10/19/10 10:56 AM 10/19/10 10:56 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia macca
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Australia | And wait till you see the new F18 boards, same level of finish and toughness.
Our teams have been sailing with them since before the worlds and despite being longer than any other board we have not broken any, despite some pretty serious thrashings of pre-production boards by our teams in conditions that have seen a lot of other boards fail..
Last edited by macca; 10/19/10 10:59 AM.
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