Devon, I've asserted several times that the mixed multihull event was part of the ISAF Olympic Commission's strategy that was vetted through the IOC, who began supporting mixed sports in 1995. If the insiders are telling us that this is the path to an Olympic multihull event, and we want to play in their reindeer games, then we ought to listen.

I made the case to the Council for focusing on other events in multihull sailing shortly after the Estoril vote, but the sailors want the Olympics. Nobody could have foreseen how things would change in the few years since, culminating in Ellison's declaration of revolution. If we don't get an event, we have lots else to occupy ourselves - while Weymouth showcases dinghies, we'll be enjoying three major World Championships here in the US.

But the die is cast for next week. After this thread, I am personally more convinced that a mixed multihull will showcase our niche of the sport very nicely. The arguments against mixed focus on red herrings, advocacy for specific equipment, straw man misdirection, and outright sexism. If anyone thinks that a mixed team can't sail a high performance cat at the pinnacle of the sport, I'd say they need to get out more, try some different classes, and not make it about themselves and the sailing they do or have done. Ask yourself why you want an Olympic multihull, and if it truly is an altruistic motivation, then what should it matter which boat as long as the "exciting, telegenic, high-performance" criteria are met?

We told the OSC that we wanted them to vote in the interest of the sport, not in the interest of the medal count. I think they followed through. We have more two-man, heavy teams than most countries - if OSC wanted to stack the deck, they'd only push for a men's multihull. That's where our medals are! Two dudes! Instead, I think OSC has taken the Olympic Commission's lead.

Looking back through this thread, I still don't see the women's perspective offered. Maybe they think the debate is silly, or maybe they don't pore over this site like the men do. I know what some Olympic women think... I know what my daughter's sailing coach thinks.

It is fine to disagree and I'm not sitting here at my desk with the objective of changing anyone's mind. My mission and my hope is to see a multihull event reinstated - if the wind blows us toward a mixed event, then that's where my advocacy will go. If the political wrangling moves us toward open, I'll do what I can to keep the scales tipped our way. If 5/5 makes some sort of zombie comeback, I'll do my best to convince the OSC that we can compete.

I get accused of being naïve all the time, and I'm often described as a hopeless optimist. This thread's turned into a bummer, but I'm trying hard to see the glass half-full; we have a good shot, and while the evaluation of equipment may be divisive and difficult, if nothing else, it will be exciting. It is a good time to be a cat sailor.

Recommend we support John William's position.
Caleb Tarleton

I sailed my Capricorn at 186kg initially before getting down to 164kg. The heavier we were, the more it hurt us even in a blow. Upwind we saw minimal loss when fully powered up but we were still displacing more water. Our main was cut with a bit more depth to give us extra power, something an OD class does not have the luxury of. Downwind, windy or light, we could not get the same depth as the guys running close to the 150kg min weight.

When it is close racing and equal skill level, weight DOES play a big role.



I personally believe the F16s ideal weight would be more around the 130kg mark. 150kg is not “Lardy”, that is 2 x 75kg men. I would imagine a target combined weight for mixed would be about 135kg (75kg male, 60kg female) and for all female, 120kg (2 x 60kg)

If mixed is the go, then the Viper would be the perfect choice.

I have no doubt a mixed Multihull team could sail a HP cat, but I do doubt the depth of talent. I guess if the discipline is created, then we may see more female involvement including some class jumping from monos, which would not be a bad thing

Another option may be to create male and female disciplines on one man/woman boats. This will not increase the athlete quota.

Guys / John, did the IOC state that the mixed event has to be in a multihull or did they just state that the ISAF had to include a mixed event and it was the ISAF that decided that it will be in a multihull? John personally I dont think this thread has turned into a bummer, It has given club cat sailers the oppertunity to express themselves and their opinions, to share others thoughts and ideas, it certainly hasnt degenerated into a slinging match, although we may have different opinions it dosent mean either of us is wrong, and I for one have valued your imput, along with others here..

+1

"This thread's turned into a bummer"

Nonsense! It's some of the best work you,JW and Mark have produced.

ALL this chatter is good stuff, absolutely essential to the democratic process.

The next step is to follow-up on Caleb's suggestion. Put your thoughts together in a formalized motion and call for a vote. Even if it is the most informal of straw ballots, you will have a sampling of opinion to take to USS, IOC or anyone else.

At the very least you'd have something to counter the arguments of any late comers to the debate.

Perhaps Mr. White could be prevailed upon to conduct a straw ballot?

There is a big machine in place that determines what events and classes are in the Olympics (ISAF). It is a heavy machine that is hard to move. It has many moving parts. We (multihull sailors) are a small part of that old machine - we certainly don't own it and we have control over very little of it right, wrong, or indifferent.

The machine has provided a square hole, a round hole, a star shaped hole, a triangle hole, and a rectangular hole for the Olympics. The machine has identified that it/we need a rectangle hole (mixed class) and they don't currently have an event that fits it. All the other holes already have events in them. We have a choice to A) beat out one of the other pegs that is already in a hole or B) shape our peg to fit the open hole.

We have about a 5% chance (or less) to beat out one of the other pegs and gain that opening (Option A) or an 80% chance if we form our own peg to fit that open rectangular hole (Option B)....which is a mixed Olympic event. John is right to ask us to help shape the rectangular peg - otherwise, we're not going to get a slot again.

PS - quit arguing about the color of the peg. We're working on getting an event in the slot and get back in the show. We'll worry about the color of the peg later.

Yes, all I've had is coffee this morning.

Gibberish and condescending gibberish at that. Have some breakfast. Take a deep breath...

How do you propose we "help" John?

I support John William's position. Keep up the good work. (Given the history of this issue, looking for the bad guy hiding in the drapes with the blunt object should be expected. Don't let the cynicism get to you.)

Excerpted from ISAF submission 097-10, ISAF changes supporting that a mixed gender multihull event for 2016.:

2-person Mixed Multi-hull Event
• The Commission supports the inclusion of multi-hull as Olympic Equipment as a Mixed Event. Mixed would reflect much of current global participation, and would provide a single-step pathway from the open multi-hull event at the ISAF Youth Worlds to the Olympics. The Commission recommends Equipment trials to select an inexpensive, modern, one-design multihull suitable for elite Mixed sailing that can be expected to become globally available in one to two years. The following paragraphs provide additional commentary on the recommendation for Mixed.
• Gender-based Olympic sailing Events have been introduced gradually, starting 1988, as sailing’s Open Events were being almost exclusively competed for by men due to the men’s strength-to-weight advantage. 2012 will be the first Olympics at which sailing has no Open
Events.
• The gender-based Events introduced were Men and Women, not Mixed. However outside Olympic sailing, a lot of 2-person sailing is Mixed – especially 2-person dinghies and 2-person multi-hull. The Olympic Commission believes that Mixed offers sailing some significant advantages and should be included in the Olympic programme for selected two 2-person Events:

a. it allows sailing to include more types of equipment in its 10 Events;
b. it better reflects sailing as it is practised globally in many parts of the world;
c. it highlights and promotes a key media-appealing differentiator of the sport;
d. it ensures not only gender equality on number of Events, but also number of athletes.

• Including Mixed Multi-hull is seen as the most advantageous way to re-introduce multi-hull into the Olympic Sailing Competition. It provides a natural pathway from the Open Multi-hull event at the ISAF Youth Worlds, and can be expected to increase the proportion of that fleet that sails Mixed at that event. Examining the other options:

a. no multi-hull: this is not supported as the Commission believes that 2-person multi-hull racing should be included
in the Olympic Sailing Competition. It is an inexpensive and exciting branch of the sport that is accessible to most nations and a relatively wide range of sailor physiques, and tests a particular sailing skill;

b. men-only multi-hull: this is not supported as the Commission believes it would be wrong, as sailing seeks to move towards gender equality, to introduce a new Event as
men-only, especially when the event is Open at the ISAF Youth Worlds;

c. men and women multi-hull: this is not supported as the Commission believes that there is not currently sufficient Women-only multi-hull racing taking place globally to merit one of sailing’s 10 Olympic Events. It might also fail to meet the IOC requirement (practised in 35 countries on 3 continents). The Commission believes that new Olympic
Events should reflect sailing that is already an established part of the sport.

• The Commission does not support the view that Mixed is “not a discipline” or “not elite”. Sailing already has a Mixed Event (the 2-Person event in the Paralympics), and the IOC has added mixed tennis for 2012. Multi-hull is currently sailed Mixed by many sailors in many elite competitions – for instance the 2010 Tornado Class World Championships was won by a Mixed crew, as was the 2009 ISAF Youth Worlds multi-hull event. Furthermore, if multi-hull is only Mixed in the Olympics, this Mixed competition will become the premier, elite multi-hull dinghy event, and will provide additional value and differentiation to multi-hull sailing.

• In its 10th December 2009 press release on mixed tennis, the IOC stated: “The inclusion of tennis mixed doubles event ... will bring an added value to the Olympic programme by
providing another opportunity for men and women to compete together on the same field of play.” Mixed sailing will offer similar added value to the IOC.

• The Commission acknowledges that Mixed sailing is not currently common in some countries’ 2-person dinghy sailing – but Olympic decisions influence grass-roots sailing, and the Commission believes that this would change if Mixed is adopted. The Commission has not identified any nations that are today strong in multi-hull sailing that do not have Mixed sailing.

Mixed is also popular in other sports. For instance Badminton supports Mixed Doubles at all age levels, with Eastern Asia dominant. Badminton’s 2010 World Junior Championships had
Mixed Doubles entrants from every continent, and the number of entrants for Mixed Doubles was significantly more than for Boy’s or Girl’s Doubles.

+1

Roger on the blunt object.

Devon and Pete, the "bummer" is that the equipment side of the issue drives us apart, and the proposal of a mixed event has pushed the equipment to the forefront. I understand it and I anticipated it, but was surprised at its vehemence.

In addition to Submission 097-10 that Rex posted above, the inclusion of a mixed multihull event in the second round of voting was discussed with IOC prior to the August deadline, and was part of a meeting agenda back in September - Bob Merrick posted a link to a good Sail World article back at the beginning of this thread. That meeting is well above my pay grade, so I don't know what specifically was discussed, but the scuttlebutt is that the IOC and ISAF left the table with an understanding and agreement on approach and methodology. In the US Delegation meeting, I raised the concern that the mixed designation was potentially a poison pill and asked why we thought mixed would fly. I got assurances from six different directions that it was the way to go, with one of the lead reasons being that "open" is code for "men's" and "mixed" fit better the US position of increasing women's participation. The OSC, with input from cat sailors and Olympians, believes now that we can be competitive in the proposed event, which is the criterion for them to recommend to the Delegation and the Board to support it. Remember, the OSC's job is to determine events where we can medal, and develop the overall Olympic sailing program (and yes, that is the order that they do it, maddening as it is). The Delegation is tasked by ISAF to do what is best for the sport, though it surely seems that MNAs vote their medal interests over the "good of the sport" to me... or we'd not be looking for a way back into the Games.

So that is how the stage is currently set. Pete, a straw poll would be interesting, but won't sample a large enough portion of the relevant population - how many distinct sailors are represented in this thread? Ten? A dozen? I'm happy to participate in a poll, but it should be understood that the resulting data would be limited in use and might not be actionable. But still interesting.

Well, if that isn't the pot....

We help John by supporting the mixed fleet proposal since he is our voice in the matter. The point I was trying to make is that with the size and complexity of this issue, if we insist on doing it "our way" by either choosing the class before the event or not utilizing the opportunity of the identified ISAF need for a mixed class as leverage, we greatly reduce our opportunity to get a multihull back into the Olympics.

John,

I know it's probably too late for a change, and thoroughly agree with what you posted. But, I just had an interesting thought.

It's clear that, maybe because of the 5 and 5 plan, some thought went into two multihull events, one for men, one for women. Besides the reasons given in the submission above, it is pretty clear that women did not want a multihull discipline, as the female Olympic sailors (or at least their reps) were looking for match racing, etc. So, we've been dwindled to one multihull event.

Can you tell us if anyone considered this approach?

Two multihull events, one singlehanded (men or open) and one doublehanded mixed.

If this was discussed, were they just afraid that they'd only get one, and wanted to be in the position to present the one they favored?

Mike

JW/Jake I don't which of you two is more exasperating!?

JW- I doubt there is as much vehemance as you imagine. The straw ballot gives you a chance to judge.

A straw ballot costs you nothing, obliges you to nothing but forces the opposing parties to take a stand. In any of our politcal conventions there are multiple ballots before a candidate is selected.

What you are trying to do is establish a platform (pun intended). That would normally be done in committee but can be done just as well here.

You're on the right track, you're almost there. Just push a little harder for a committment.

Jake- everytime you get frustrated you retreat into the world of engineering. This is not an engineering problem, mechanical analogies will not suffice. This is NOT a contraption. It is a socio/political debate. You, hopefully, are trying to move others to your point of view. You need to bring out the salesman in you and send the engineer home for a nap.

I just re-read the Sail World article. Remind me why Team Racing isn't one of the paths forward? If properly produced, nothing is more compelling to watch, even if they use slow boats.

Mike

Many here are having difficulty grasping the situation so I tried to put it in mechanical terms. Reason and explanation weren't cutting it already.

...And I think JW was pretty clear that he didn't think a poll would hurt anything. I'll be glad to take part....but the poll ignores the political situation of the issue. Personally, I would like to see a big double handed "open" spin boat as the Olympic boat but I don't think we have much chance of getting ANY spot if that's what we try to push right now. Make a poll. I'll vote in it...but we don't have visibility of all the people and organizations that are pushing elsewhere. Even in the off chance we could agree here on what we want to see in the Olympics, significant compromises would most certainly have to be made in order to increase our overall chances of getting an Olympic spot. I trust JW and the few souls helping to do that in the best interest of our sport.

yes its called a D class.. hell even a C would work..

+1

We already have Caleb, Rex, myself and you in support of JW's position.

All we need do is have JW restate his position, just so everyone is on the same page, and ask for those willing to support him. The vote is already 4-0.