Thats really a lot to chew on, Im gunna be really brave now and just throw this out there, lets copy the sucess of the laser but in a cat, how about the hobie wave, this will really open the market up not just to the adults but to the younger teens as well, it can be sailed 2 up with spin kit, cheap to buy and run, easy to transport, and way faster than the laser, heck most of the laser sailers will probably want to jump ship as well, is sold worldwide, easy to learn, would be a great match racer, I really dont think they will want high tech, i think they want it to look like a coke a cola add where every one in the add is having a great time, lasers arent cutting edge but are sumwhat simular to the wave, simple and fun. Is a class where father and daughter could win gold.

Ok I have had another thought, what about the weta tri? These are faster than most mono hulls also. Who sais it has to be a CAT? It sais mixed multi hull..

A common thread running through all olympic sports is that they use the best and most advanced equipment. Can you imagine Tiger Woods or Roger Federer using clubs or racquets from the 1960's or 1970's. We have been criticising the decision to drop multis as a step away from spectacular performance sailing and a move to dreary outdated slugs. Anything other than choosing a modern, fast and challenging boat would be a retrograde step. This is supposed to be the pinnacle of sailing being showcased to the world. I don't buy the argument that it has to be a boat currently sailed in a lot of countries and cheaply available. Buying a boat is a minor part of running an olympic campaign. Travel to major regattas, specialised training, loss of employment, accommodation etc are way more. Can you imagine top tennis players rejecting an advance in racquet technology because there are a lot of the old ones around the world and some countires may not be able to afford the new ones?

I say run a selection shootout and choose the fastest most spectacular boat that can be sailed effectively by the slated crew configuration.

Viper F-16

I feel the same way as you do, but tennis isnt about to be dropped by the IOC, for this time round all we need is to attract more viewers, if that can be done using high tech then fine if it can be done using a popular laser style of multihull then we need to go that way, simply viewer numbers have to increase or we have nothing, high tech or not! Once we re-establish an interest in multihull sailing then we can promote the elite in modern high tech multis that will only ever be sailed in smaller numbers

Aren't f16 sailors worried about their class if the viper is selected?

Paul

I think you are right. If the Viper were selected all the other F16's would soon wither on the vine just as the other B Classes did when the Tornado was selected.

Devon

My point was that the boat and sailing needs to be exciting and spectacular to get the public interest. Otherwise we are just serving up the same boring stuff as the slugs which has caused the IOC to rethink the involvement of sailing in the Olympics.

I know where you are coming from ace, and I have argued your point on several occasions, and I still prefer to no compromise, it should be pinnacle but at the moment we just dont have the following, its like what LE is trying to do with the AC he is trying to create new heroes, bedroom posters, build the interest back, so I can see how just putting an extreme multi up there may not work, only we will watch, not Mrs Jones..Something like a weta which is still faster than any current olympic monos and close to the 49er may provide that opening for youth as well as adults, Because Mrs Jones will watch her teenagers and so will all of her friends, I hate that concept because the olympics wont be showcasing the pinnacle, but I have come to learn from people in this forum that is where we need to start in order to get to a pinnacle event in the future. Unless they give multis 2 spots. I have expressed my views openy to people like John and have come to realise that he is really leading us down the right path, and I am a stubborn sob and a ex Tornado sailer..Cheers big ears

Could you please explain how the T Class "got nus and lost focus" ??????



And please elaborate on this further. The Viper is now an ISAF recognised class. Something the Tornado and 49er were not when introduced to the games. And, I beleive also the RSX. Also note the Viper may fit within the F16 (and 104) class rules, however it is far from an optimal F16. It is more a 104 than an F16.

If it is a mixed class, I beleive the Viper would be a great selection. the Tornado is more than capable of being a mixed class alsoo but feel the smaller boat woud be better suited.

Anyone know what the procedure is for the selection of equipment?
Is it by invitation? Or can any manufacturer submit a boat?
I think the Viper or other F16 is a nice boat, but I do think a bigger boat would be better, to prevent the risk of the proverbial midget sailors.
Maybe we will see an F18 design after all?

The Viper is a cracking good boat and has demonstrated it can carry a range of weights and retain its speed and performance, it does tick a lot of boxes and also is modestly priced compared to say the new F20C, that it has to be a contender if we can get a mixed class in multihulls ( about the only way in my opinion ).

Will it hurt the F16 class, it is sufficiently outside of the F16 rules that it will make its own SMOD class and the more experimental sailors or the solo sailor will continue to develop the F16 class until the Viper starts to fall back a little as the Viper design cannot be updated if selected.

The F16 boat designs at the moment are sufficiently equal in speed in dual handed mode that my guess that both Viper and F16 boats will continue to race together to build numbers on the start line and also help clubs gather big enough fleets to put on top class events. Perhaps in the long term then we may see the Viper go SMOD events as per Hobie has done, if numbers build enough for AHPC to splash the cash on event sponsorship.

Isn't that exactly what the IOC and we are trying to change ?

Wouter

To be quite frank, I'm more worried about our ISAF membership / recognised status then the Viper F16 becoming an Olympic class. Afterall, the Viper will do so as a SMOD class and formula classes is where the future is. Maybe this is the best of boths worlds. Development in the F16 class, then every 5 or 10 years or so a trickle-down to the SMOD Viper. That is basically what happened to the Taipans 4.9 too and avoids another chupahooka disaster like the last Olympics. Also the Viper is pretty close to where our scene is with respect to design. It is today's cat technology and I'm sure the carbon mast will be fitted when it is selected as all olympic sailors really want that (Viper F16 => 120-125 kg and allowed under F16 class rules thus no problems). Of course, there is already experience with carbon masts in the class so it won't be a dud either. As such the Viper F16 will be a good showcase to the larger public. It will be a viable cat design for many years to come, worthy of replacing the Tornado (less then 10% slower and on a par with modern F18's). It will also be the better of all dinghies by a huge margin, all without the issues of an perceived open class unequalness and it will allow female sailors to shine. As people say; it simply checks alot of boxes.

Other then that, we have weathered heavier storms then that over the last 8 years (think, selling luxury goods during 3 credit crunches 911 (2001), dot.com bust (2003) and world recession (2008-2010) + going heads on with the competing products of other bigger builders (F17 FX-one F18-HT etc).

Besides the F16 class doesn't have a full developped scene yet that may be disrupted like the F18 or the A's. Sure we'll see some effects, but nothing to fret over. Current owners have the boats for the love of them not because of any long term plans.

We'll be alright.

As far as I know (but correct me if I'm wrong) the F16 class and boat owners are also not of the mind to (officially or publically) vote against the Viper F16 as an Olympic class or spinnaker class (as the H16 class might). Unlike what the F18 and A-cat class and owners have done.

All the lines seem to link-up quite nicely in the case of the Viper F16.

However, with ISAF one never knows !

Wouter

I disagree. The B-class/Tornado boats have other features that made them impractical to most - most of which is the beam that is outside legal trailering width. Every other 8.5'+ boat has gone the way of the dodo bird although I admit to being hopeful and enthusiastic about the F20c. I hope it is the Viper if nothing else so I can be proven right when the Olympic class boat choice will actually be a boon to the class.

I'm not sure about that Jake - F18's are wider than legal trailer width in AUS - and many are trailed on the tilt. The rest take the risk of not getting caught. They are still sailed to some extent here although numbers seem to be declining.

6 inches difference is one thing (our legal width in SC, USA is 8 feet as well - it varies from state to state in the US)...but we're talking about an 18" or 24" difference. You're not going to sneak by with that.

I attribute it to a difference in "class" culture. Sure, many of the issues that apply to the other formula classes are applicable to the F16 class and the whole uncertainty of "what will happen" can be painful. However, my observation has been that most F16ers are comfortable with the box rules defining the class and not any single builder. The latest ISAF designation as the International Formula 16 class grants an additional layer of confidence in the box rule's stability.

AHPC builds a great F16 and does a admirable job of marketing, including leveraging one boat competitively across two classes (104 & F16). Achieving Olympic class status would be another feather in the cap. Should AHPC elect to pursue Olympic status for the Viper, I believe most F16ers will support them so long it is not at the expense of the F16 rule set. There are a lot of pro's and con's for AHPC to consider, and I am confident that they have looked at it from every possible angle.

Yes we do. But that is OK. The genetic lottery decides for you what sports you are best suited for. Fact of life in all sports.


Olympic status for the Viper or any other F16 design is a risk to the F16 class. The B-class did not die becouse of the width but becouse all the talent choose to sail the T.
The choice between buying a Viper and sailing world cups at Hyeres or Kiel + F16 regattas, or exclusively F16 regattas is pretty easy for most. Media attention will be on the olympic design, the "hot-shots" will be there etc. There lies the obvious risk, and it is a huge risk.

Evaluation events have been arranged two times previously for multihulls. In the 70s leading to the selection of the Tornado and in 2000 where the Tornado with spi and double trapeze was selected. There have also been evaluation of other gear like skiffs for females. In all these evaluation events any manufacturer have been welcome if they filled a pretty wide set of criteria. At least as far as I know.

In the 2000 evaluation event the M20 with uni rig was a favourite of the sailors. There were also other cats present but I dont remember exactly which. Tiger and a NACRA design? Anyway, the evaluation event have had the sailors score each craft and then there are scores for somewhat more unsubstantial values in each craft.
I expect the one-design Tornado to be present. The M20, NACRA20banana, Viper, Tiger, Infusion, WildCat, Spitfire, Falcon, Hobie 16 with spi etc.

Personally (i.e., not an official position), I view the Tiger and the Viper as good candidates for the same reason; because they are both slight outliers (Tiger due to design age, Viper due to weight), the selection of either would do little damage to the respective classes, yet still allow Olympic teams to compete in larger fleet events in addition to the Olympic Classes events. The B-side to that hit record is that the members of the F16 and F18 fleets would continue to get top-notch sailors at their events. We'll see what happens.

As far as the evaluation process goes, that is in motion now. Criteria will be established, boats will be submitted, and it appears there will be an on-the-water evaluation as before. First, the people that set the criteria will be selected - not sure exactly how that is going down, but that starts the ball rolling.

... F18's are wider than legal trailer width in AUS ...

Another box checked with the Viper F16, at 8.2 feet width is it legally trailerable the world over. (and boy, do I remember the heated debates we had about that when the class rules were formed)

Wouter