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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: John Williams] #224201
11/15/10 10:00 AM
11/15/10 10:00 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
Personally (i.e., not an official position), I view the Tiger and the Viper as good candidates for the same reason; because they are both slight outliers (Tiger due to design age, Viper due to weight), the selection of either would do little damage to the respective classes, yet still allow Olympic teams to compete in larger fleet events in addition to the Olympic Classes events.


I would say that is the positive asessment on the risk. The negative is death of a formula class. The only precedent is the B-class and the selection of the Tornado.
This really is a question on psychology and manufacturer spin. Will the percieved advantages of owning a olympic one-design in a formula fleet outweight the disadvantage of being locked in to one-design rules? Only way to find out is to actually see what happens if one of those designs are selected. Personally I think the possibility of participation in the world cup events, olympic status and mingling with the rock stars will be more than enough to do damage to a formula fleet if choosen.
On the other hand, there might be something completely different like a M20 with banana boards that ends up as the olympic multihull. Or the Tornado gets another go (that is a fantastic boat, also for mixed sailors)

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #224214
11/15/10 11:58 AM
11/15/10 11:58 AM
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waynemarlow Offline
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You have forgotten the versatility of the F16 class unlike the T's and B Class, not all sailors want to sail with the rockstars, not everyone wants to sail always with a crew, an awful lot though want to be able to launch a light weight cat either as a single hander or with a crew and compete at the front, at their local club race.

The boat that would pose a problem to the F16 class would be if a fully compliant boat became the Olympic boat and some of the new designs such as the Falcon and Raptor are good enough for that role.

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: waynemarlow] #224215
11/15/10 12:05 PM
11/15/10 12:05 PM
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Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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I see your point but consider what the backbone of an ISAF international class is made of, and how that backbone is created.

I dont want to contribute to creating a problem where there is no problem currently so I'll keep it quiet.


Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #224233
11/15/10 05:08 PM
11/15/10 05:08 PM

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Scarecrow
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Scarecrow
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There is another precedent. The Europe is/was a one design spin off of the moth. The difference however was the Europe was already 30 years old and out dated with respect to moths when it went Olympic in 92. I guess it would be like picking the Tiger.

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Mugrace72] #224248
11/15/10 08:57 PM
11/15/10 08:57 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
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Originally Posted by Mugrace72

Only the H16 makes sense under the apparent scheme. That makes you a potential Olympian Bob.


already got that t-shirt.

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: rhodysail] #224287
11/16/10 02:46 PM
11/16/10 02:46 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 160
claus Offline
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I see it difficult for a 18" or even 20" design to be a mixed boat. Mean weight for a man in Europe is about 75 kg? For a woman 55? This would give a combined weight of 130 kg. From my experience on both boats, for a H16 this is perfect, on a Tiger/F18 with the big sails this is not enough (for 15 knots+). Eastern countries even will have difficulties getting up to 130 kg. How can a Tornado or other 20" cats be an option for a mixed crew? If I remember right, optimal weight for the T was around 145? I think it should be easy to get close to ideal weight for a lot of teams, especially young ones!

Last edited by claus; 11/16/10 02:47 PM.
ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: Luiz] #224320
11/17/10 11:03 AM
11/17/10 11:03 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Luiz  Offline
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Originally Posted by Luiz
I am worried about two things:

2) The exclusion of the Star will activate a strong lobby of old, rich and famous professional sailors.



The lobby stats, as expected. Follow the link to the Star website or read the transcription (the blue text and bold were added):

ISAF Excludes Men's Keelboat for 2016
By Bill Allen , ISCYRA President
Nov 15, 2010, 21:58

At the recent International Sailing Federation Annual Conference in Athens, Council voted to accept a slate of events that does not include a men’s keelboat. In a 19-16 vote, a 10 event slate was tentatively approved encompassing:
• Men’s and women’s sail boards or kite boards
• Men’s and women’s 1-person dinghy
• Men’s and women’s 2-person skiffs
• Mixed 2-person dinghy
• Mixed 2-person multihull
• Men’s heavyweight dinghy
• Women’s keelboat

A final vote to confirm these events will be taken in May, 2011 at the ISAF mid-year meeting. The Laser, Laser Radial, Finn, mixed 470, and Elliott 6m were approved as equipment for their respective events. The remaining equipment (classes) will be selected based on “evaluation trials”.

This slate of events was recommended by the Events Committee, which considered a list of events, including keelboats, developed by the ISAF Olympic Commission. From the discussion during the week in Athens, it was clear that the Olympic Commission and many Council representatives wanted to move toward increasing the number of high speed sport boats for better television and Internet coverage.

The Star class fully supports the ISAF decision-making process and the eventual outcome. We understand and appreciate many of the challenges ISAF faces in making our sport more attractive to the media and we believe the Star can make unique and valuable contributions in this area.

The Class had a strong delegation in Athens to argue the benefits of keelboats as athletic sport boats and their value to media presentation. Star Class Vice Commodore Harry Adler from 2016 Olympic host Brazil (and also first sponsor of the Grael brothers, father of two olympic medalists in Star and Soling, former council member, etc.), International Vice President Claude Bonanni, Executive Director Barbara Vosbury, Athletes representative Mark Reynolds, and Class measurer John Koopman spent long hours discussing our great class with ISAF attendees.

There are two arguments that seem most compelling. First and foremost, keelboats are where many of the heroes of our sport compete. Star Class champions are among the most recognizable names, and excluding them from Olympic competition is denying the media the established stars of the sport. Second, one of the objectives of the Olympic Commission is to have “diversity of physiques;” yet all of the other boats have very narrow weight ranges. Other than the Finn, all male competitors need to be less than 85 kilos.

Over the next several months we'll continue to work closely with ISAF in a positive and constructive manner as we continue to attempt to convince ISAF Council members that keelboats should be represented in the 2016 Olympic Games. Members are also encouraged to contact their Member National Authority (MNA) officials or ISAF Council members to argue the benefits of including keelboats.

Regardless of the final outcome of the 2016 Olympic event selection process, we will continue to thrive as a class and move forward. The Star is the premier one-design racing keel boat in the world and for 100 years Star sailors have led the way in advancing the sport of competitive sailing. Our 2010 European Championship set a class attendance record with 140 entrants. We possess more talent, resources, and commitment than ever before in our history.



Luiz
Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: Luiz] #224322
11/17/10 11:13 AM
11/17/10 11:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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John Williams  Offline OP
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Bill is a class act and represents his constituents very well. I enjoyed meeting him and look forward to seeing him again in May.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: John Williams] #224323
11/17/10 11:27 AM
11/17/10 11:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 126
southern Ontario
Twister Offline
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southern Ontario
Yes he is. I have met him while I competed in many star regattas. I am probably a very rare active Cat sailor and Star sailor. I would love to see them both in the games!


Ryan
Dart 18 #4860
Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: Twister] #224325
11/17/10 12:30 PM
11/17/10 12:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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JW, for the next meeting, we need to get you guys some T-shirts, hats or something:

5 and 5

I can even hear a chant...

Mike

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: brucat] #224327
11/17/10 01:15 PM
11/17/10 01:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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John Williams  Offline OP
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May sound silly, but US Sailing actually made up lapel buttons for "5/5" and wore them, passed them out, etc. Bill is (of course) a big fan, too.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: John Williams] #224329
11/17/10 02:01 PM
11/17/10 02:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
sail7seas Offline
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FL
Would someone 'argue the benefits of including keel boats', in particular 'woman's keel boat match racing'?

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: sail7seas] #224330
11/17/10 03:16 PM
11/17/10 03:16 PM

S
Scarecrow
Unregistered
Scarecrow
Unregistered
S



The biggest benefit in including male keel boat is it makes a better case for split male and female cats. Multihullers should support the Star over the finn for this reason.

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: ] #224333
11/17/10 06:16 PM
11/17/10 06:16 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Originally Posted by Scarecrow
The biggest benefit in including male keel boat is it makes a better case for split male and female cats. Multihullers should support the Star over the finn for this reason.


+1


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: Mugrace72] #224348
11/18/10 06:51 AM
11/18/10 06:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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South Carolina
An apparent Paul Henderson leak posted on the front page of Sailing Anarchy this morning:

Quote
like he sees 'em

Paul Henderson was asked by the ISAF to give his thoughts on their Olympic decisions. We got 'em...

Olympic Events: (On request of the President) CONFIDENTIAL

Assumptions:
Sailing will continue with 10 Events and 380 athletes for 2016.
Olympic Sailing should err on side of “Talent over Technology”.
Encourage inclusivity not exclusivity.
The vote on the Events takes place in November 2011.
The Equipment (Classes) are picked in 2012.
Format, Fleet or Match, to be done 3 years before but should be done also in 2012 with exceptions.
Experience with 2012 Women’s Match Racing will put this in place. Match is exclusive. Fleet inclusive.
(Council made error by deciding Women’s Match Racing in 2007 as that is Format.
Women's’ Keelboat is the Event.)

Solid Classes:
Men’s Singlehanded: Laser Standard
2) Women’s Singlehanded: Laser Radial
3) Men’s Keelboat:
4) Women’s Keelboat:
5) Open Doublehander: Skiff: 49er (no reason to change)
6) Men’s Heavyweight Singlehander: Olympics must not become a Junior small peoples event.
The Finn has served sailing well and should be retained until something better comes along.

Comments: There should be Keelboats because of facilities required for the Paralympics.
Also it is where the best names in Sailing show up which is what the media likes.
The media likes personalities more than they like equipment.

Tough Decisions:

History:
It has been done before that an event is held out of the Games for a period and then brought back. It has usually been done to change equipment as was done with the FD and Tornado.
Windsurfing was originally brought in to show the cutting edge of our sport as distinct from the traditional aspects as shown above. Windsurfing 40 years ago was the new “Extreme Sailing”.
For the next decade every other car going down the highway had one on their roof.
Now it is in strong decline and should be dropped for 2016. 40 years was a good run.
Skiing is a good example as they have replaced events with Snow Boarding disciplines. Speed skating has also met the challenge with Short Track.

Kite Boarding is the new “Extreme Sailing”

Must make the decision to drop the 470 and Windsurfing Men and Women.

Bring Cats Back: (Kinetics are minimized)

It was right to drop the Tornado as it had become very expensive and exclusive succumbing to technology.

7) Men’s Cat: (model to be a modern Hobie 16 with their same “Laser” mentality)
8) Women’s Cat:

Kite Boarding: “Extreme Sailing”

Take a leap of faith and put Kite Boarding in for 2016 as we did with the 49er and Windsurfing so many years ago. Format does not need to be decided till 2013. ISAF will have two year to massage the format to have a sensible equipment and competition.

9) Men’s Kite Boarding
10) Women’s Kite Boarding

“Fools go in where Angels fear to tread”

Respectfully submitted,
Paul Henderson


10/18/10


Jake Kohl
Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: Jake] #224350
11/18/10 07:31 AM
11/18/10 07:31 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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TEAMVMG  Offline
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uk
Hope that someone listens

5 / 5 might well happen yet


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: TEAMVMG] #224351
11/18/10 07:52 AM
11/18/10 07:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Quote
7) Men’s Cat: (model to be a modern Hobie 16 with their same “Laser” mentality)
8) Women’s Cat:


Leaving open the question.... What is the modern Hobie 16?

IMO, everyone's boat favorite boat selection choice is dismissing this major factor... the simple minded boat.

What would the world look like if the Hobie Wave is selected for the Olympics AND we get men's and women's single handed cats?

Gender equity... check.
Individual athlete focus.... check
Multihull Check
Affordable, Popular, Low entry barrier for non sailing nations. Check.
instantly recognizable by the world... Check... More people have probably sailed a wave at a resort over the past 5 years then have sailed a performance cat... Hobie 16 on up.

hmmm... down load Beatles tune... revolution from itunes.... hmmm.






crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: Mark Schneider] #224352
11/18/10 08:15 AM
11/18/10 08:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


hmmm... down load Beatles tune... revolution from itunes.... hmmm.



I just want my iOS 4.2 dammit. I'm done with Apple as soon as someone builds a reasonably competitive/functioning products (and when I'm up for a new phone). I'm tired of stuff not working and nobody addressing it and this "mysterious" marketing crap they have going on. I've got a $1500 head unit in my truck and an iPhone 4 that won't automatically connect or stay connected after a manual connection through a simple bluetooth connection - the previous iOS system worked just fine.

Sorry, now back to your regularly scheduled program....


Jake Kohl
Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: Jake] #224357
11/18/10 08:39 AM
11/18/10 08:39 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
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P.M.  Offline
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On the Water
Originally Posted by Jake

I'm done with Apple as soon as someone builds a reasonably competitive/functioning products (and when I'm up for a new phone). I'm tired of stuff not working....

Jake, give this a read
Newsweek October 11, 2010


Philip
USA #1006
Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 [Re: Jake] #224358
11/18/10 08:47 AM
11/18/10 08:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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John Williams  Offline OP
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Long Beach, California
I'd heard that he wrote this before the meeting in Athens. It isn't very surprising; he's been pretty consistent. I'm glad he concludes there should be two multihull events, but he really doesn't have much reasoning behind it, other than to say again that he likes cats because there are "no kinetics," which is an incorrect assertion. So, yay! He agrees with us! And, Boo! He doesn't understand why...


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
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