| Re: new boat
[Re: Tornado_ALIVE]
#225460 12/15/10 08:30 AM 12/15/10 08:30 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 548 MERRITTISLAND, FL Matt M
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548 MERRITTISLAND, FL | Yes, the A class guys can be a bit like Lemmings, however do you really think there is no significant difference between the MkIV Boyer and the Flyer?
As for the DNA, some of the best are convinced. Ashby so much that he got himself one despite his production of ASGs. What does that say. He does not want to be beaten by Brewin on a DNA. From what I have heard over here, the DNA guys are now trapping downwind. The platform has allowed them to do this in reasonable breeze where as it was too dangerous before hand.
There will always be those who jump towards the trend manufacture, however every now and then a manufacture will raise the bar a notch and others will have to follow suit or slide out the back door.
Many here keep rushing to “the sailor makes the biggest difference” which is true, but if you were investing, why would you put yourself at a disadvantage. Why should you have to sail better than the next guy to equal his performance.
New designs have and will come out, they will be quicker and over time. It may happen with gradual change or you may see a leap from one manufacturer. So really, how many people here disagree? I am not claiming that there is not a significant difference in the 2 designs. And I would also rather be on the newer design than the older. If you had like age/condition boats and identical foils and rig though, the ultimate difference (across the whole range of conditions) would be such that normal mistakes and sailing errors for almost every sailor would outweigh the potential to drive the boat easier. Downwind trapping is just a technique that was already being tried before the DNA much like the wild thing was years ago. The ability to do this easier is a result of the new revision in mast/Sail combo and has nothing to do with the DNA. The revised bend changes to some of the newer masts allows you to have a larger sail shape range, so you can be fuller with more power off wind but still be able to keep flat and in control up wind. The ASG3 went radical from A class standards and has not been received well. Ashby has his hands full I imagine with the AC, so I would not consider his jump to a DNA anything other than convenience. It’s the age old dilemma with formula/box classes. What you really are proposing is 1 design racing. Or, we all buy the newest design each year- which is what typically happens with a select group within each class. The F18 guys work overtime trying to tell the world they are all equal and the A class works hard to promote the designer and development. Both have strong level racing across the fleet. – why? | | | Re: new boat
[Re: Matt M]
#225497 12/16/10 12:48 AM 12/16/10 12:48 AM | thricebitten
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| thricebitten
Unregistered | The revised bend changes to some of the newer masts allows you to have a larger sail shape range, so you can be fuller with more power off wind but still be able to keep flat and in control up wind. Hey it's back to the future  Mossies made this development over 12 years ago, basicaly no difference to upwind speed, but much more power down wind. Improved speed around the course dramaticaly. | | | Re: new boat
[Re: Matt M]
#225499 12/16/10 04:14 AM 12/16/10 04:14 AM |
Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,669 Melbourne, Australia Tornado_ALIVE
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669 Melbourne, Australia | Downwind trapping is just a technique that was already being tried before the DNA much like the wild thing was years ago Correct, however it was not considered fast / too risky. The ability to do this easier is a result of the new revision in mast/Sail combo and has nothing to do with the DNA. The revised bend changes to some of the newer masts allows you to have a larger sail shape range, so you can be fuller with more power off wind but Whilst the new rigs will make an impact, the platform has played a part as well. Trapping downwind requires a reasonable about of breeze to make it beneficial. The old platforms were a bit hairy when the breeze picked up and sailors would shift to keeping the boat flat with both hulls in the water to keep the bows out. The DNA has quite a bit more volume and with the adjustable curved boards can be pushed much harder downwind in breeze i.e. trapping downwind. Please note, I do not have firsthand experience with this, just what I have heard from A Class sailors. | | | Re: new boat
[Re: Matt M]
#225500 12/16/10 04:20 AM 12/16/10 04:20 AM |
Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,669 Melbourne, Australia Tornado_ALIVE
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669 Melbourne, Australia | The ASG3 went radical from A class standards and has not been received well. Ashby has his hands full I imagine with the AC, so I would not consider his jump to a DNA anything other than convenience. Ashby's company builds the ASGs. When AHPC shifted boat production offshore, one of their boat builders moved over to build boats for Ashby. (Ashby started of as an AHPC sailmaker before going out on his own). It would not supprise me if Ashby bought the DNA to have a good look at it before bringing out the next ASG design. Nacra had a good look at the Capricorns and Tigers when designing the Infusion. | | | Re: new boat
[Re: Matt M]
#225548 12/16/10 04:38 PM 12/16/10 04:38 PM |
Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 242 Brisveagas Aido
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 242 Brisveagas | Have to agree with Matt on this one. I think the new techniques on the A are more attributable to the mast and sails. Thrice bitten pointed out that this is how it works on the mossie. To my eye the new a rigs are stiffer sideways and heaps bendier fore and aft. Makes sense when you think about it. Wouldn't be easy to achieve on a wing mast. But I dont pretend to understand composites so maybe not. It not just the guys on the DNAs trapping downwind. Need to get me one of those bendy carbon sticks. Yes, the A class guys can be a bit like Lemmings, however do you really think there is no significant difference between the MkIV Boyer and the Flyer?
As for the DNA, some of the best are convinced. Ashby so much that he got himself one despite his production of ASGs. What does that say. He does not want to be beaten by Brewin on a DNA. From what I have heard over here, the DNA guys are now trapping downwind. The platform has allowed them to do this in reasonable breeze where as it was too dangerous before hand.
There will always be those who jump towards the trend manufacture, however every now and then a manufacture will raise the bar a notch and others will have to follow suit or slide out the back door.
Many here keep rushing to “the sailor makes the biggest difference” which is true, but if you were investing, why would you put yourself at a disadvantage. Why should you have to sail better than the next guy to equal his performance.
New designs have and will come out, they will be quicker and over time. It may happen with gradual change or you may see a leap from one manufacturer. So really, how many people here disagree? I am not claiming that there is not a significant difference in the 2 designs. And I would also rather be on the newer design than the older. If you had like age/condition boats and identical foils and rig though, the ultimate difference (across the whole range of conditions) would be such that normal mistakes and sailing errors for almost every sailor would outweigh the potential to drive the boat easier. Downwind trapping is just a technique that was already being tried before the DNA much like the wild thing was years ago. The ability to do this easier is a result of the new revision in mast/Sail combo and has nothing to do with the DNA. The revised bend changes to some of the newer masts allows you to have a larger sail shape range, so you can be fuller with more power off wind but still be able to keep flat and in control up wind. The ASG3 went radical from A class standards and has not been received well. Ashby has his hands full I imagine with the AC, so I would not consider his jump to a DNA anything other than convenience. It’s the age old dilemma with formula/box classes. What you really are proposing is 1 design racing. Or, we all buy the newest design each year- which is what typically happens with a select group within each class. The F18 guys work overtime trying to tell the world they are all equal and the A class works hard to promote the designer and development. Both have strong level racing across the fleet. – why?
Aido Viper 288
| | | Re: new boat
[Re: Tornado_ALIVE]
#225549 12/16/10 04:54 PM 12/16/10 04:54 PM | Scarecrow
Unregistered
| Scarecrow
Unregistered | Ashby's company builds the ASGs. When AHPC shifted boat production offshore, one of their boat builders moved over to build boats for Ashby. (Ashby started of as an AHPC sailmaker before going out on his own). It would not supprise me if Ashby bought the DNA to have a good look at it before bringing out the next ASG design. Nacra had a good look at the Capricorns and Tigers when designing the Infusion. When I spoke to Glenn about a month ago he stated this was the plan. Expect the next generation of A's from someone (whoever has the budget and facilities) to be built using two moulds. One for hull outsides and top surface of beams and the other being inner hulls and beam bottoms. Its all about stiffness and structural continuity | | | Re: new boat
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#225565 12/17/10 04:22 AM 12/17/10 04:22 AM | Scarecrow
Unregistered
| Scarecrow
Unregistered | I don't think you're understanding. I'm talking port and stbd halves | | | Re: new boat
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#225934 12/27/10 03:42 PM 12/27/10 03:42 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | "Anyway you are never going to get rid of the guy who thinks he can just go purchase some more speed cause he can’t make his current equipment win. "
And why, from a mfg. standpoint, is this a bad thing? It keeps builders in business, and supplies a steady stream of lightly used, newer models in the chain for those who don't have all the dough to spend on the sport, but still want a solid performer....
Jay
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