I email US sailing with the spec's on my new Smyth sails for my TheMightyHobie18. My portsmouth rating was 71.5 with stock sails. they rated me at 69.7 corrected with the Smyth sails. not 2 bad of a hit considering the performance difference! I think I am better off now. We will see after first regatta. But I am confused about how I will be rated at regatta's. Even though I know what my hit should be from US sailing. What's the rule as for as what I can be rated at in a local regatta? does the person running the regatta set the handicap? or should I submit the email I got from US sailing with my rating? Whats the standard?


Doug Ramsey
TheMightyHobie18
#4383

Doug

Why would you not want to sail in a one design class with the other Hobie 18's? I can understand that the boat sails a little faster and better with the smyth sails but you always have to sail in the open class. You can't really tune your boat against others since you are the only one. Also your resale value will not be as high, you can not sail in any large Hobie events with the other 18's and be class legal. If you just fun sail I guess I can undersatnd but why spend the extra money for Smyth sails?

Just my opinon

The way I see it is, I can still sail in my class just with a handicap. Or I can sail open class. Is this wrong? or do I have 2 sail open class? that's what I am confused about.? Most of the regatta's I have been 2 don't have that many boats. So I am Racing against Boats of different makes and models. I have hell with prindle 18's due to weight difference. So I am racing against time & portsmouth ratings. One of the local regatta's I sailed against a prindle 18, Intra 20, hobie 16's Nacra 6.0. Its all about your portsmouth rating & time. I feel I have gained more performance with the non-legal Smyth sail & my portsmouth #.


Doug Ramsey
Hobie 18
#4383

You cannot race one-design in a Hobie 18 class using non-stock sails. There is no handicapping in a one-design class. Many one-design classes allow you to buy your sails from whatever source you wish, and you are class-legal as long as your sails measure in. But this is not the case with Hobies and other one-manufacturer boats -- you MUST use stock sails in order to race one-design. In your case it sounds like you are always going to be racing in open class anyway, on handicap, so this is probably not an issue for you. But you might want to hang onto your stock sails just in case you are at a regatta with a bunch of Hobie 18's and you want to race with the class.

Buying non-stock sails may (or may not) make your boat sail faster. But racing one-design will make YOU a faster sailor.

P.S. To answer one of your questions, when you are racing on handicap, the rating given you through US Sailing is the one that is used at all levels of racing. It is based upon the modification factors supplied with the Portsmouth yardstick. If you have a question about how those factors were applied in your particular case, you should contact Darline Hobock, hobockd@aol.com

The interesting thing about modification factors for sails is that it doesn't matter whether they were made by Randy Smyth or whether you sewed them yourself using Martha Stewart bed sheets.

Except for the Slip 2 Ship Regatta in mississippi. Most of the regatta's I attend there are not enough boats of one design to make a fleet. So everyone is thrown togather. And its raced by handicapp. I wish catsailing was as popular as it used to be in my area! There are just not that many boats. What goes around comes around. Maybe it will come back one day!



Doug Ramsey
TheMightyHobie18
#4383

Scoring is up to the Primary Race Officer (PRO). Some of them, especially those at Hobie Regattas, are not too familiar with the Portsmouth system. So you should know what your Portsmouth Numbers are (Wind HC, not just D-PN), and be prepared to explain why in case there are any questions.

Your base D-PN should be 71.5. If your new main sail is larger than 105% of stock, than you take a modification of 0.980 (ML). The modification for a larger jib is 0.995 (JU)

71.5 * 0.980 * 0.995 = 69.7

Your wind HCs are then 73.4, 71.0, 68.0, 65.8

I recommend that you know how to calculate them yourself, and be able to explain it to the race committee. Also be sure to write down your mods (ML and JU) on the entry form.

Finally, don't let the one-design nazis get to you. Different people sail for different reasons, but overall its about having fun, and it sounds like you're having lots of fun with your new sails.

Pete Schmalzer
Nacra 5.8 NA/MN

Hi Doug,

this is tami. I spoke to Mike Cole the other day, we've got him in our prayers.

Hey, are y'all coming in for Labor Day weekend? The CCC's having a Beach Party at OSYC, so pack up the boys and the boats and come spend the weekend sailing and having a good time. I'll go buy some food and colas, the bar's open at the YC, and you know what it's like to sail at Ocean Springs...

On to the subject at hand.

Lissen. I know who and where you're sailing. You and I both know that there's not a big onedesign group here. So what? Like the man said, don't listen to the onedesign nazis, you sail for pleasure FAR more often than you race. And besides, as a race official, I'm just damn glad you're racing AT ALL. Snobbery makes for low turnout numbers.

You should be scored thusly. Your number is dependent on how skilled the scorer is, or whether they even bother with it, or whether they bother with the wind adjustments (most don't). If you don't like the numbers assigned at a race, question them. You should be assigned your no. at registration, so do it right then.

If you want a general understanding of Portsmouth handicaps, go to http://ussailing.org/portsmouth and read. Their description and instructions are pretty comprehensive.

The basic formula is thus:
(number for class/wind condition)*(modification factors)

Now there are also wind dependent handicaps, so you oughta have like 5 different numbers, actually.

Base numbers for Hobie 18:
dp-n Beaufort 0-1 BN2-3 BN4 BN5-9
71.5 77.0 73.6 69.7 66.8

Your modification factors are, given the only things which aren't class legal on your boat are the sails (eg you're sailing at class weight, you have class boat parts, etc.)

Oversize main =
For non-class legal mainsail, of greater sail area* than standard main (t-I don't know what your new sailarea is)
0.980 0.969 0.975 0.980 0.985
Oversize jib = For larger than standard jib
0.995 0.984 0.990 0.995 1.000

So, ok.
Your base number is:
dp-n (OSmain) (OSjib)
71.5 * 0.980 * 0.995 = 69.7

If you're sailing in Beaufort 0-1, your number is:
77.0 * 0.969 * 0.984 = 73.4

and so forth. Most RC's will just use the base number and not bother with the wind dependent factoring, it makes for a lot of math. Sailwave (my compliments to Colin, who subscribes to this list) is real nice in that you can type modified boats in as a 'class/boat type' and it 'remembers' the mods from then on.

You will NOT, with these new sails, be able to be race class with the Hobie 18s. You are now an open class Portsmouth fleet guy. Like the guy said, if you keep your old sails and race with them, you will be class legal and can race in fleet with other H18s.

Hope this answers your questions. You know my email, write and ask if you have more

sea ya
tami
Mamadore, and Portsmouth Naziette, Coast Catamaran Club

Answer... Because class racing with his boat does not exist therefore, there is no value added for buying a Hobie sail. He gets real value from Smyth (or Calvert or Elliot) with the latest in sailcloth and design, plus a sail that will hold its shape much longer then 1970's technology used by Hobie for their class legal one design sail. It probably cost him the same amount of money for the Smyth sails (or at worst a small premium).

Put your self in his position: His Hobie 18 is probably at LEAST 5 years or older.... His sails are shot.. He wants to race locally...Probably 3 or 5 times a year. His sails are so old that he can't possibly compete against any other open boat under Portsmouth which is using decent sails. He either doesn't want to spend 12 to 15 K on a new boat.... or most importantly even if he did... he couldn't tell you WHICH new boat will get a one design fleet in his region that comes close to 10 boats in the majority of regattas in his region. Finally, it turns out that NO class gets a decent one design turnout in his area.... so he can't even sell his 18 and go with the flow! Factor in the point that his souped up 18 at 68.0 can now run with the Nacra 5.5 and he can finish on the same leg’s as P19’s and Nacra 5.8’s at 66.5 (estimates)

My question to Dave and the rest of the one design advocates is:
How many boats do you think you need for a one design class?
How many boats do you need to see at regatta after regatta to keep you interested in racing one design?

Last week at Barnegat Bay.... They scored the following classes:
Hobie 20... one boat. (now that was good race)
F18's class of 4 boats. 2 did not race most of the day.
Hobie 18's class of 4 boats.
Open class 3 boats.

This does not meet my criteria for a fun weekend of one design OR open class racing. (If you want to race one design cats... you race either a H16 or 17 because they get lots of those boats racing in the Mid Atlantic.)

Does this regatta meet your fun factor criteria???

If we insist on pretending that one design racing in these other classes exist we will kill off the racing interests of these sailors. (Why would I want to go to Barnegat Bay next year? The majority of racers from my club who did attend report that they won't be back)

Here's the question every racer with something other then a H16 or 17 faces... Why bother traveling to go racing against 4 other boats .... Why not just stay at your home club and sail with the usual suspects? lots cheaper and from what I can tell... about the same amount of non competition.

Seems to me you can swim upstream and pretend that your particular favorite boat will grow in popularity in your local area...(Hell likely to freeze over first) Or Try to persuade everyone else that they should pick X boat because it: maybe, could be, oughta be, the next one design boat (Worked in Michigan with F18's ... but no place else) Or... go with the flow and get a Hobie 16... OR ../ deal with the reality in most of the USA and race these orphan classes under Portsmouth.

IMO, Race organizers must address these low turnouts upfront or just watch these racers twitter away because it’s not much fun. How about this statement in the NOR... If your class does not have ten boats on the water you will be started and scored in a Portsmouth fleet AND your one design fleet. No wiggle room or politicking allowed. Seems to work for the Catfight in Michigan… (note that CRAM also scores their regional regattas overall using Portsmouth AND in class.)

Take Care
Mark

Mark, don't they still have to have a minimum number of boats in class to award trophies for each one-design class in the mix, in addition to Portsmouth trophies in the same mix? I have been having a hard time figuring out how many trophies would have to be ordered to conform to your proposed system of scoring.

How many of us go to regattas to get something pretty to hang on our walls?

A neat way I've seen to deal with this problem is to make the trophies on site. A printed out digital image of your boat racing with the regatta name and place superimposed makes a fine trophy, IMHO.

EVERYBODY wants trophies. The trophies don't have to be pretty, and most people don't hang them on their walls. But they want something tangible to take home to show that they have done well in their sport.

The idea of printing out pictures of the boats is fine IF you have someone who is a good photographer and has a powerboat and can dedicate a whole weekend to making sure they get good pictures of all the boats, and IF you have facilities at the site with a computer and a color printer, and IF you are sure everything is going to come together and be done in time for trophy presentations. Personally, I don't like all those IF's.

My point was that competition on the water is much more important than trophies. I hope nobody lets the trophy situation drive the regatta organization.

We've been doing the photo trophies at one of our regattas for several years now, and its worked out fine. The photos are taken from the committee boat, without the need for extra personnel.

I think having good photos that can be posted on the web is important for drawing people to the regatta, so RCs should be taking as many photos as possible anyway. Also, if you're going to be doing Portsmouth scoring you'll probably also have a computer and printer.

I'll bet all the pieces of the puzzle are already present at 90% of regattas with an open division.

Ah Trophies!

What a pain in the butt! CBYRA (our big boat organization) allows their clubs to absolutely require pre registration by Thursday and then they mail the skipper his silverware (often weeks later)(LICSA also does this) This is probably the way to go... but... we don't … so here is what we do.

CRAC, WestRiverSA and Hobie 54 consult tea leaves and the vapors to make the proper number of trophies ahead of time. Basically we order trophies three deep for any class that we "think" is going to post with 5 boats.... We make this prediction weeks ahead of time due to the lead time needed to get trophies made.... or at least nice trophies. Frequently... only three turn up... So... what are we going to do with the bought and paid for trophies with include event dates ... (I have a crate of unused trophies in the basement and I don't want any more clutter...)_ So we award the trophies we ordered!
Yes... I think its not fair to award three deep in trophies to a class of three boats as we did for this year's C100.... but on the other hand... maybe it's an incentive for people to go racing. Two weeks down the road... who remebers the regatta details and who really cares about it anyway. I don't have a real answer.

A bigger PIA is the shipping of trophies that are not picked up at a regatta. Once an event is over... your energy level is close to zero... Ordering trophies, Mailing trophies... God for bid, reordering trophies because you are short a few, writing a decent race article, Thank you’s and acknowledgements, Posting the results on the Internet and forwarding them to Darline MUST be easy or it won't get done. Using Sailwave goes a long way to solving the scoring issues... but ordering, packaging, and mailing trophies (who has the address) is still a couple of hour job and costs bucks. As the saying goes… Old news… is No news… well the same with trophies… Nobody seems to care about a trophy 3 weeks down the road.

We attempted to save trophies and re use them from year to year... however... Nobody wanted to store them for a year... and secondly... they seemed kind of musty to reissue for next year's regatta.... People sort of expect something a little different.

To answer your question directly.
In the Mid Atlantic. We can get at best 20 to 25 of the following boats Hobie 18, 20 Tigers, Nacra, I20', 6.0's F18's, Prindle 19's. and Tornado's and F18HT's... All of the Prindle 16's are locked out ofof most of the Hobie regattas because they slow the open class start down too much. These guys don't race any longer (they don't like long distance races either). The low turnout will be 10 to 15 of all kinds as we saw at Barnegat Bay.

My personal approach for the C100 was:
Skipper only 30 dollar trophy three deep for two divisions. Spin and Non spin. This was a miss.... I had only 5 boats in non spin.. and should have gone 2 deep there and at least 5 deep in Spin. I purchased cheaper trophies for skipper and crew for 3 one design fleets and one open fleet eg… the left overs… based on the expectations of the de facto local fleet captain 4 weeks before the event. Only one of these captains could not get a good turnout of 5 or more boats. These trophies were three deep skipper and crew and about 10 bucks each.

Each race team will value these two trophies differently… One design guys have told me that this combined scoring is completely irrelevant to them and they look at other boats they are ostensibly racing as speed bumps to be avoided. Other skippers simply want to measure themselves against the local rock star and what matters is where they rank overall.. To each their own.

In the end, I think that awarding three high quality trophies skipper only to the combined open class will go along way to making this race worth something. I would base my best guess on a one design class turnout on my best read of past history and err on the side of more trophies awarded then less (This is the normal process.) The schedule that Hobie suggests seems fine. I would award the Open (or left over class) trophies at the same rate as a one design fleet. I would definitely award skipper and crew and I think that’s more important then the overall quality. Personally, generic trophies with no event or date are worthless to me.. Also…. it helps if they are attractive to display… otherwise they sit on a table for a few weeks and then get tossed into a drawer.

In practical terms... Scoring the regatta the way I suggest is simply a matter of taking times for all of the fleets in the larger open class start. Purchasing three additional trophies.... Each club can decide how much they want to spend and using sailwave to score overall and within fleets.

Splitting Spinaker and Nonspinaker fleets goes a long way to making the racing more fair... but this depends on turnout so make your best call and go for it.

Well, the rain has stopped so I can get some errands done.
Take Care
Mark

I could hAVE NOT SAID IT BETTER MY SELF,,, THANKS

DOUG RAMSEY

Tami
I do not have your email address! Are they having a regatta that weekend?


Doug & Stacy

Hi Doug

Just revamping an 84 H-18 also , -thinking of trying to adapt an I-20 spin and snuffer to it as a masthead chute ,
the 28 ft alum mast is the right height ,-also would like to update the sail and mast ,--suppose I could place the CF
I-20 MAST main and jib on the H-18 also ,--talk about a handicap rule beater in light air ,-

WHY design modification ? --this has been the history of multihull and catsailing , the basic development of better faster more fun type sailing craft .
We need a rating system that is based on design modification .
P-rating does not calc sail area but is based on skippers times in CLASS -seems if modifications are made to boats in sail area and other design related options then we should use a design measurement system to rate them accurately --
Obviously an average time based system does not accurately reflect true speed potential , being based on skippers ability and their very different skill levels and recorded finish times.

Also most sailors prefer class type racing as a truer test of sailing skill ,-per rule 2 in ISAF sailing rules --FAIR SAILING and the ideals of it -
ISAF ratings state --It is recognized that one-design and level rating are generally a more realistic test of sailing skill. For events organised under these regulations, organizing authorities may consider separate arrangements for one-design or level rating classes present in sufficient numbers.
http://www.schrs.com/


The very large differences in skippers abilities become apparent in large active classes and in distance racing where hours seperate very good teams ,-yet these times are ignored in the P-rating scheme that is based on times of skippers on Class type and brand name boat types recorded in buoys races in open class. We do not see factored the large difference in finishing times in class in events like the Alter Cup for example ,--yet these very real vast differences are there --not factored ,
These very real differences are not recorded or used in the Tybee or past Worrell 1000 races where very real differences in numerous hours occur between exellent teams .
--How can average times reflect reality of true boat speed potential when it is obvious numerous classes of boats that are sometimes reported do not have any similar skippers ability on them .---The wish or hope is this all averages out ,-- the reality is ,--IT DOES NOT ,-
IF WE HAD A SPEED TRIALS week where numerous types could be tested and timed by top skippers all changing boats in numerous runs we may have some verifiable basis for times ,--but again this is hardly the reality .--


Like the golf annalogy ,--P-rating is like taking all golfers that play NIKE brand golf clubs and making them scratch handicappers because Tiger Woods uses them and his av score reflects this ,-next according to the P rating mentality would be Titleist brand or class type clubs ,-they all may be a two ,--next mcgregor AT 3 and so forth ,--
Its absurd --right? --Golf correctly uses an individual handicap system applied only for local club type competition . Catsailing could do the same , establish individual handicap for those types of small local club racing events . Some sailing clubs do this with great success.

The ideal form of racing is class type as used in all major races and international events .-Basic box rule type classes like A-Class and Formula classes hold the most promise to revitalize the sport as has been accomplished around the catsailing globe and finally just starting to generate great interest here in their first year .

-The golf annalogy may not be fair ,-sailing is a much more equipment oriented sport , so ,how do we accurately RATE this equipement ,-by brand type of who is sailing which brand ?
Obviously the ISAF rating and Texel rating systems have the basics right . Use design measurement of the equipement .Take basic box measurements of Length weight and sail area and formulate a reflective rating equation to rate all boats based in these very real design measurement criteria.
The basic Texel equation does this well
TR number = 100 / (0.99 * RL^0.3 * RSA^0.4 / RW^0.3),
RL is rated Length RSA is rated sail area RW is rated weight --

We can improve on this rating system by adding a windspeed factor at windspeeds above 8 when most cat designs start to fly a hull and crew get on the wire ,--this is where the biggest design speed jump occurs ,-ratings should reflect this .- This windspeed would factor in beam and other minor design factors to adjust the base Texel number in higher windspeed ,-again based on real design measurement and accepted design practise and criteria ,--not unscientific av times of very different skippers abilities in brand types or class.
It is important to review ratings and times of boats , av times could be used as a handicap added factor applied to older unmodified class boats ,-most boats that are updated would fall into a basic box rule or Formula type classification ,--this allows target modification to encourage fair equal sailing in all length categories over time .
Also a method for rating spin area as the ISAF rating uses and an added efficiency factor based on aspect ratio is needed .

Concepts for this rating system are on the F-20 forum under TIP rating ,--a proposed concept for Texel Isaf and P rating combination rating system with windspeed added.

As Formula and A Class [box rule type classes } become more popular the need for a more complete systematic approach to the sport will become apparent and more people will become interested in updating to a more integral universally accepted approach in rating catamarans for open multiclass racing as well.

People like to modify and update boats ,--like the H-18 -
we need an accurate design measurement rating system to help encourage fair and equal sailing and believe with large Formula type classes and an accurate means to target and rate other same length boats equally we will do a much better job of promoting the sport of catamaran and multihull sailing .
Formula 60s -120 ft round the globe racers ,-C-Class cats International A Class Cats -18 SQ and numerous Formula classes along with numerous other existing established classes--all based on design measurement --our rating system needs to be a design measurement based one integral with them to really help promote the sport .

Local smaller clubs should also consider individual handicap rating geared towards encouraging new sailors and youth sailors into the sport .

In choosing a class to race in when purchasing a boat, as most do, what factors will help encourage more partisipation ,-large integral same rating classes that are internationally recognized and active around the globe ,-
or an ever changing isolated average skippers timed handicap rating .
---Which will do most to promote new classes and fleets ,-attract new interest and boat dealerships ,help grow groups and sailing clubs ,-help new events ,-We are already seeing it in the new development classes in their first year here based on design measurement concepts and great class racing ideals.Hope more will see the advantages of it and get involved in promoting a large devlopment class and in helping revise to an integral design based rating system to work with and compliment them .

Carl

pETE

yOu WritE

- you should know what your Portsmouth Numbers are (Wind HC, not just D-PN), and be prepared to explain why in case there are any questions.

Your base D-PN should be 71.5. If your new main sail is larger than 105% of stock, than you take a modification of 0.980 (ML). The modification for a larger jib is 0.995 (JU)

71.5 * 0.980 * 0.995 = 69.7

Your wind HCs are then 73.4, 71.0, 68.0, 65.8

I recommend that you know how to calculate them yourself, and be able to explain it to the race committee.

Finally, don't let the one-design nazis get to you.

kinda funny --sounds more like the P rating Gustopo

YOU must know your assigned D-Pn 5 additional numbers and have your PAPERS and answer the questions or you vill be exterminated-
Maybe more like the Stallinists ,-agree with our methods or you will be called a Nazi and sent to Syberia .

just jokin with you a little -

Many people enjoy the pure simple fair aspects and truer test of sailing skill class racing and new Formula Class and development type class racing offers .
Carl
- .

Carl

Its not what sailors would LIKE.... Its about whats available in your area and how you are going to manage this circumstance. Individually and as a club putting on events.

Case in point... the I20 fleet. From what I can tell they have had ONE 10 boat regatta this year (Florida last week).
What 10 boat I20 triangle regatta have you sailed in Michigan this year? Whats your plan... sell your I20 to a rec sailor and buy an F18? Perfectly reasonably mind you... Its just not my choice.

The Michigan solution looks like they collect times and print out the overall results plus the 5 boat I20 results. You pick which one matters to you. Atleast it maximizes the fun in going racing.

My proposal is to publish in your NOR that you must have 10 boats on the water or you will be combined into a suitable portsmouth fleet and scored as a one design/formula.
Basically this means purchasing three extra trophies per portsmouth fleet created. Collecting times and running sailwave.

Hope to see you at Catfight
Mark

don,t think calling P rating a really helps fix the numerous problems that stem from the faulty basis of P-rating .

A design measurement rating system would accomplish the difficult task of rating boats fairly and subsequently equal classification of racing groups and modifications as per H-18 and numerous others much more accurately plus be much more integral with box rule type growing classes based on basic design measurement principles ,--that again are REAL -one dsign -Formula class based .

Hope your comprehending the difference .