| Re: A Dissenting Opinion
[Re: John Williams]
#228243 02/05/11 06:36 PM 02/05/11 06:36 PM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA Isotope235
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Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA | I disagree, however; I see this situation three or four times a season from both sides. Watch the latest video from Steeplechase for a great visual demonstration of how effective a leebow can be. I didn't mean to say that cats can't leebow. I meant I don't think "tack or cross" is generally a useful tactic for cats. Given their straight-line sailing speed and the time needed to tack, if you can't cross then you can't leebow either. If you're aware of catamrans hailing "tack or cross", however, I'd be interested to be proven wrong. I'm happy to learn. Regards, Eric | | | Re: A Dissenting Opinion
[Re: John Williams]
#228245 02/05/11 07:17 PM 02/05/11 07:17 PM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA Isotope235
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Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA | The hail "hold your course" is not binding on a right-of-way boat. I still say it though. When I hail "Starboard", or "Leeward", I am simply alerting another boat that I'm there. When I reply to a hail with "hold your course", I only mean that I'm aware of them, and that I intend to keep clear. If you want, you can hail "I'm going to cross" or "I'm going to duck" instead. That would make your intention even clearer. Hailing is not explicitly recognized nor required outside of rules 20 and 61. According to Dick Rose, however, rule 14 "AVOIDING CONTACT" implicitly requires hails, as they are a reasonably possible way to help avoid a collision. Many other judges disagree with that opinion though. Either way, I believe that they are still a good idea. "When Boats Meet" is much safer if they are aware of each other and know what actions to expect. In a starboard/port encounter, although boat S has right-of-way, she still has an obligation to avoid contact under Rule 14. At some point, if P does not keep clear, then S has to take some sort of "avoiding action" (which is typically to change course or speed). S doesn't get carte blanche on when to make that decision. She must have a genuine and reasonable apprehension of contact. Take a look at ISAF Case 50 at http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/CaseBook20092012with2011changes-[9701].pdf which states: When, after considering all the evidence, a protest committee finds that S did not change course or that there was not a genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision on her part, it should dismiss her protest. When, however, it is satisfied that S did change course, that there was reasonable doubt that P could have crossed ahead, and that S was justified in taking avoiding action by bearing away, then P should be disqualified. Oh, and there is no specific rule regarding "tack or cross". It's just a common tactic in close port/starboard crossings. I hope that helps, Eric | | | Re: A Dissenting Opinion
[Re: David Parker]
#228316 02/07/11 10:14 AM 02/07/11 10:14 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | Dave As Starboard... your OBLIGATION is to not change course which forces the other guy to react... that is in the rules... (obligations on changing course) You can tack away from the port cross if you do so early enough and not foul port.. but you can't use the I am nervous factor to take a course change action and call foul on port.. (see Erics citation of the appeal)
Now... your level of confidence in ports behavior goes UP when you know all the sailors out there on the race course and you "KNOW" how they Sail. Here is a good story, Two very good US sailors go to the EU on Tornado's and are yelling STARBORD at every cross in the pro Tornado fleet.. (See Eric's best practice) The fleet asked a third party to tell him to shut the hell up because he was just annoying. So...in the Tornado Fleet... Eric's SOP of hailing ... and (Dick Rose's SOP) was nixed by the fleet culture. So... the communication issues are part of fleet culture not necessarily the rules.
The hails you are using above are just part of the local fleet culture...
KNOWING how your fleet sails is also a bit of a trap. The rules are the only standard.
It's important to be very clear so that rookies and old guys like me are clear on the best standard of practice.
Staboard is sailing his course. The conservative course (of action for port is to not place yourself in a protestable position ...
Port should tack or start ducking early.... There is NEVER a reading of starbords mind.. or a dependence on knowing the fleet culture... the rules are clear what starboard must do... (not change course) .. . as the published case made clear... In this special case Port Asked Starboard Tack or Cross ... AND THEN If you do ASK... you do what starboard requests.... If you don't get an answer... there is no mind reading... you tack or duck and take the conservative action...
IMO... We need more protests of crosses where port doesn't quite make it... and starboard lets him off the hook after turning down and chooses NOT to call protest.... Even though the advantage gained is small it encourages RISKY action.... Port is really depending on starboard being able to bear down... dump sheet... not stall rudders etc etc..... Protests will shift the behavior to conservative sailing. (I bet most people have NOT been in more then one or two protest hearings in their life...)
I know my own stupid behavior is to take risks on crosses... I recognize this when i am on the beach... but in the heat of the moment... you want to make that cross... and wanting too and being smart are not the same thing.
My gripe is that the good guys are not making good Standard Operating practice clear enough in these threads ... these discussion are busy trying to mark out the exact edges of the rule.. so the message is confusing!
In many of these threads... sailors seem to think Starbord has to do something as the cross is developing.... They Starbord are EXPECTING some action by Port more then the final course change by port ... (but none is officially required and so they start mind reading... what will port do?... I want to know as starbord what port will do? ...Do they see me? ... my not knowing makes me nervous!... I will holler starboard once more!!!... ... which is my way of asking... what the hell are you going to do?.... He STILL has no obligation to say or acknowledge your yell..... He keeps on coming......ACCK.)
Now one of two things happens... it looks very bad to starbord... so they change course and yell protest) .... but they have no case... (as they are perceiving the cross in thise story) ... they have to come up with facts about wind strength, speed and distance between the boats to make the case about when they changed course .... remember... the protest committee has to decide if the cross was unreasonable or not... Starbord needs facts to support his judgement and the PC needs facts to support Starbords call... nervousness won't cut it.
or Two.. all of the noise will cause confusion on port's part.... (WTF.... Starbord should just sail strait....)
Sometimes they will know that Starbord will loose focus... start pinching... slow down and now Port is TEMPTED to cross.... or just pissed at the rookie on starbord for shitting around and forcing them to make a BIG turn down. Bad things happen all around.
I would say... Starboard... keep a proper lookout... Sail hard and don't change your course... if you decide... OH **** at that last minute... Port screwed the pooch... I must turn up to avoid... or Turn Down to miss their rudders. God help me... and wish me Good luck!.... your turning is your proof you were trying to avoid a collision and keeping a lookout but sailing hard and as expected. (And pay attention to the fleet culture)
Port... I would say... Keep a proper lookout x2... Sail conservatively... DON't push the cross... it is NOT worth it.
(And Pay attention to the fleet culture)
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