Hey, Carl, I'm with you! I guess I must be a one-design nazi, too. There's no other way to race, as far as I'm concerned. It's more exciting to race Sunfish one-design than catamarans on Portsmouth. But, of course, it is more exciting to race catamarans one-design than to race Sunfish one-design.

Portsmouth is just a necessary evil because we catamaran people all want different boats and there aren't enough of any specific breed. Portsmouth is a completely different game, because you are not racing against other boats -- you are just racing, as an individual, against the clock and trying to get around the course as fast as possible. It's like Steve Fossett setting records with Playstation.

Some people like the individualistic aspect of racing on Portsmouth -- no tactics to worry about in terms of other boats, just the strategy of where to go for the best wind and the fastest angle for yourself and how to make your boat go as fast as possible and how to cut off seconds everywhere you can in terms of tacks and jibes and mark roundings.

Nothing wrong with that. But as I said, racing on Portsmouth is a different game -- sort of like playing golf as opposed to chess.

I don't think thats fair. If I'm heading downwind, and I see another boat going deeper, I have to evaluate if they had a favorable shift, or that's just a quality of the boat. Should I keep going higher and faster, or should I gybe to cover? Instead of being automatic, the decision now requires calculation.

It's true that you can't get away with playing "follow the leader" in a handicap race (is that a bad thing?), at least not if you have a fast boat. But you also can't ignore the other boats on the course and the information that they give you on wind variation. You also need to pay very close attention to differences in sailing charcteristics when starting and rounding marks.

So instead of just knowing about the characteristics of my own boat, I now have to know the characteristics of all the other boats in my start. This results in a race that's more rich in complexity and potential strategies then one-design racing.

I think all of this has given me a much better feel for the tradeoffs between speed and heading - which is the central theme of catamaran sailing - then I would have learned from one-design racing. OTOH, I probably haven't learned as much as I might have about tacking and rounding marks cleanly.

Hi Mary

That echos the sentiments of most catsailors -
it is about what sailors -LIKE ,-or prefer


We had such great large class racing in "the good ol days" --recall more than 300 showing at regional championships on all sizes of cats and having 40 plus boat A and B fleet starts .
Thanks so much to you and Rick plus numerous other excellent sailors we had to race and compete with -it made us all much better sailors.

Looks to me like the best way to have similar renewed interest and growth in the sport again is through the new Formula Classes and development type classes which include all types and builders in various length categories. We will see 25 plus F-18s in Muskegon MI in Aug in their first year and more than 120 total boats . The numbers in Formula classes could double or tripe next year as more Hobie -Nacras -Mysteres -Storms and numerous others -get out to race and compete in subsequent years .

The benifit of a design measurement rating system is its integral compatability with these box rule type development classes that are also based on design measurement in Formula .Also to accurately rate modification of numerous existing boats to target or allow equal rating per length category ,--For example an older H-18 could have a new sq top main -add a snuffer spin -and rate per design measurement equal to F-18 -

If we can recognize this and help facilitate the momentum and efforts already proven successfull by builders around the catsailing globe we will see the "good ol days "-with numbers and renewed interest back again ,-

Just bought a H-18 and have it on the lake along with a SC 15 for the kids ,--and this big one also ,-

Any current updates or reports on the F-18 regional event on Lk Ontario and the Worrell PRESENTATION FOR THE PROPOSED 04 w-1000 -
THANKS
Carl

Hi Mary,

Yes, Portsmouth is different, but it's a lot closer to chess than you describe (checkers anyone?). Unless you're the only boat on the race course, there are lots of tactical decisions to be made. There are good lanes and there are bad lanes. There are boats you should/can cover, and boats you should let go/avoid. Often, there are other boats with very similar ratings, so you are practically racing boat for boat. The rules for starts, mark rounding, etc don't care if you're sailing 1-D or handicap – you still have to consider who will have what rights when you converge. Note that this little fact makes it hard to have true 1-D racing . . . I'm used to seeing multiple fleets on the course at once. It's easy to lose time/distance because you owe room to a boat that isn't even in your fleet!

I do agree that one design, in a fleet where everyone has 'similar condition' boats, is a better test of sailing skill, but Portsmouth racing is much more challenging than you make it sound. If you make decisions as if there are no other boats on the course, you'll usually lose to those who are looking around.

Kind Regards,
Kenn

Sailwave is a great product, but it dosen't do modifications and it may actually be decreasing practical knowledge

Hi Pete

The Sailwave solution is to create a new rating in the database for a boat class with it's modifications

EG Na5.8NAsq
in your case.

I use excell and some formulaes to massage the USPN list of N numbers. to create the 4 columns of data needed by Sailwave. System, Boat Dpn, WindNumbers.

I then apply the spin modification to boats in my region that now race with chutes. Next I create three more entries with the Weight correction applied. So... you have a total of 4 entries per basic boat. This takes about an hour a year.

Bottom line, the scorekeeper does not have to know the details...
As they scroll thorugh the list of boats they simply match your registration form. If you register your boat as a Nacra 5.8NAsq H2 you are covered.

There are advantages to using this system as opposed to picking out of a list of modifications.
1) errors creep in when you have to choose out of the menu of correction factors.
2) Sailwave lists the boat type and rating and by choosing an intuitive name... competitors in the handicap class can figure out what's going on.
3) Shifts the onus of declaring a correct rating to the skipper and not the scorekeeper. PHRF racing frequently requires you to send in a xerox of your rating certificate with your registration form in our area.

I do agree that as the software solves the mechanics of scoring the race... understanding of now it works in general decreases. (especially if you only do this once a year for your annual regatta)

Sorry to hear that the one design Nazi's in your area insist on segregating the Hobie Tigers' and the Nacra F18's into seperate races. oh well.... obviously you were not inclined to shout "Mien Fuher" and simply follow along.

I stupidly wonder why anyone bothers with racing when faced with such nonsense.

Take Care
Mark

and don't forget the special salute

Colin -{U K Catsailor }is a genious with Sailwave --it also has Texel rating and ISAF rating for cats on it --both design measurement rating systems in use .

Seems H wants it both ways in N A --seperate Tiger only events and to be part of Formula 18 -- sailors and event organizers will choose F-18 -
Performance is no better ,-they build the I-20 here with 15 sq-ft more sail area and a 390 weight that does not comply with iF -20 specs ,
-then expect all to join the F-18 concept of the N-F-18,--
Neither can have things both ways -

Both Hobie -Performance and numerous other boat builders sailmakers suppliers boat dealers can enjoy increased sales revenues by promoting the sport of racing and Formula concepts that have increased partisipation so successfully. -

Hi Pete

Ya agree --the written word always seems to be taken more harshly than I would ever intend also .

The 5/8 is a great boat ,-have raced it ,-there is still an active fleet here in MI .
The F-18 may be the way to go in future years as mentioned though I like the 20 size for distance racing offshore in Tybee and W-1000 type events .
Hope to see a F-20 class here in N A also -- --

this century -

To be fair, segregating Hobie Tigers and Nacra F18s in the area is hypothetical as I don't know of anybody with a non-Hobie F18 around here.

Mark - With regards to your modified Sailwave config file - If you have to consider all the possible combinations of modifications, I think it would become quite cumbersome : 12+ 12!/(2! * (12! - 2!)) + 12!/(3! * (12! - 3!) ... ... + 12!/(12! * (12! - 12!)) lines per class, which comes out to some obscene number. This would be necessary to accomidate any arbitrary boat upfront. For example, your system would not accomidate me because I take an MN adjustment.

Your solution of planning for a small number of expected cases upfront, and doing the unexpected ones on the fly seems like a good one, given the options available.

Pete

Here in the mid-Atlantic area I have to race portsmouth as well as (occasionally) one design on my H20. I race both enthusiastically because I'm out racing, but the bottom line for me is its a lot more fun to know when you cross the line how you did, not hours after the days racing when the scorers finish the math. Also, while on the course you can see the results of your technique; am I gaining or losing, is the boat ahead pointing higher, going faster, etc. More feedback makes for more interesting sailing. But as I said, I willingly race both types, because that is what we have to do to race together today.
David.

I'll chime in on saying that the SailWave way of doing modifications is a pain. I do the scoring for our Tuesday race series - in the past I used a spreadsheet I wrote that kept the base rating and allowed up to 5 corrections to be plugged in for any race. I decided to switch to SailWave this year for a couple of reasons, and for the most part really like it. But having to enter a whole override number instead of just the corrections is a gripe I have, and maybe one that comes up more often in a 13 week long weeknight series than in the usual weekend race. I much prefer plugging in the correction factors. The other thing that's a pain is the lack of support for printing - it's easy enough to export the wrap-up to Excel and print it, but there's no nice way to print a single race which is nice to post each week on the bulletin board in the bar. And yes, you can html it and then print from a browser or editor, but that's really a pain...

Of course, I still think it's great software, and I've been meaning to send these comments in but haven't...

I have to agree with Mary on this. OD or Formula racing, where whoever crosses the line first is the WINNER, is way better than PN racing. Problem is that where can I race OD spin cats on the USA eastcoast?

Take for instance a race held this weekend, a couple of hours north of here . There were about 5 Hobie 14s, 5 Hobie 16s, 2 Hobie 20s, and a single A-Cat. They all started together and were scored on PN handicaps. The A-Cat apparently ruled every race, but I bet that the Hobie 14 and 16 OD racers had a lot better time than the two Hobie 20s or even the A-Cat sailor.

The A-Cat had to race the clock and probably had zero tactical or boat for boat interaction. Why not just go sailing by yourself? Now the 16 and 14 sailors had each other to race and probably enjoyed the regatta more than the victorious A-Cat sailor.

Now the racing is better, if the boats are more alike. Take I-20s, Nacra 6.0NE, anf F-18HTs, racing around the cans, and the boat for boat interaction becomes more interesting. Still, the best racing occurs between the ODs within such a handicap fleet.

Next, how many OD spin cats have sufficient numbers to hold decent OD or Formula racing? The F-18 guys have some decent races in Michigan and New York, but in the Mid-Atlantic the Tiger fleets have had less than 5 boats per regatta, except at Spring Fever. In fact, they are averaging less than 2 boats per regatta. What about the HTs? Well, they have had several races with 10 or more HTs, BUT this occurs only at their classes' chosen regattas. When individual HT owners race in non-class events, they find themselves racing alone or against 1-3 other HTs. The I-20s? No bouy racing in the mid-Atlantic-PERIOD! Tornados have their own deal, so they don't do races outside their group, much like the A-Cats and HTs.

What is the answer? I don't know.

I also disagree with the "no tactics" appreaciation of handicap racing.

One of the biggest pro's of handicap racing is that it pushes the leader to go faster and not cover and defend all the time. If the leader covers and defends his/her position all the time than a slower rated boat will beat it on Handicap despite the fact that the leader is also covering any slower boats.

He leader just can;t sit there and just block once he had a good start.

He is also racing that "slow" H14 and not only the two to three boats just below him.

Wouter

Count me among the OD nazis. Racing on any handicap system is a poor substitute. Wouter... The example you make proves the point. If the leader applies tactis to situation and covers the boats behind he looses. All he can do is go as fast a possible.

>>>The example you make proves the point. If the leader applies tactis to situation and covers the boats behind he looses. All he can do is go as fast a possible.

In handicap racing he has more to cover and therefor the decisions become more complex and tactics deepen. Not that I dislike OD racing but the describtion given about Handicap racing as being less tactical is just not true.

Especially in club racers where OD class are often small to minute (0-5 boats); here you mostly have only one true competitor and if you always cover him no matter what then you'll do fine. When you handicap race with the other 10 to 20 boats on the course than you'll also have to keep an eye on other competitive sailor who happen to sail a different type of boat. Now you have to adjust your tactic to out preform the sailor that is most likely to outperform you on handicap. This in turn allows you OD competition to sneak away or to choose to go the other way than the other hot shot. There is nothing more annoying than being garanteed to be covered all the time by the same boat. Now in OD fleets of some size (=+10 but preferably more) than the situation changes but in OD fleets of less than 5 boat it is all way to predictable.

Besides It wouldn't be the first time that a Prindle 16 by Frank and Hester at our club gave the big boys on F-18's and I-20's a huge scare. This season all the faster crews eyeball the boat right behind them and the Prindle 16 sailed by F and H. Sometimes they even change tactics during the races to go to the other side of the course to make sure that that P16 doesn't beat them.

Would I want a world championship in this format ? No, but it sure is a hell of lot more complex and also enjoyable than what the OD's claim.

Wouter

Count me as a One Design Dinosaur, also. I love my Portsmouth buddies, but it's way too much math for me!

Wouter,
To expand on my analogy between handicap racing and golf. In golf, you choose what club to use for the situation, you decide strategically which side of the fairway you want to hit to, you try to avoid the water hazards and sand traps, you check out the lie of the putting green. You may watch the golfers in front of you to see how wind is affecting the trajectory of their shots, so you can adjust yours accordingly to compensate and take advantage. But your whole goal is to try to get the lowest possible score and, hopefully, equal or beat the handicap that you have been assigned....UNLESS you stonewall so you can get a higher handicap and therefore improve your chances of winning in the future.

The only difference with handicap sailboat racing is that instead of trying for the lowest possible score, you are trying for the lowest possible elapsed time around the course, and you are hoping to equal or beat the handicap that has been assigned to you. Well, the other difference is that in golf you are the only person hitting a ball at any given time, so you have the course to yourself; whereas in handicap sailboat racing, you have a bunch of obstacles -- other boats -- on the course at the same time.

Occasionally, you may be able to get some useful information from watching what is happening with those other boats, but for the most part you are just looking for clear air and the best wind and the fastest lane around the course -- strategy.

No question about this being a challenge, but it is a challenge of a different kind than you find in one-design racing. Some people like one type of challenge and some like the other. Personally, I would rather race one-design and lose and feel like I learned something, than to race on handicap and win and always wonder why.

I have to agree with Mary.

We mostly sail on handicap, and tactics are something you apply at the start and at the roundings. Otherwise it is clear air and choosing the best side.

Trying to cover a boat able to point 10 degrees higher to the wind while beating, is not an option in my opinion..

BUT: I find handicap starts and roundings are tactically more difficult becouse of the difference in speed and pointing ability (and sometimes easier).

I think handicap racing is fun, but OD racing is more fun and rewarding.

Just my two cents..

What's the big deal with tactics and one-design racing? You guys keep talking like there's something magical happening out there on the race course, and I'm just not seeing it.

As far as I can see, the only tactics are when to cover if you're in the lead, or when to break cover if you're behind. What am I missing?

Well, the same sort of tactics come into play in handicap racing. I agree that a H14 shouldn't try to cover a H20. But it often will pay off for a H20 to cover a Nacra 6.0, for example. But not always, which calls for tactical thinking.

Most of the regattas I go to have the open division broken out by Portsmouth number. D-PN < 69 goes into Division 1, and D-PN > 69 goes into Division 2. This keeps the boats close enough to each other for tactics to be a consideration.

Not that there is anything wrong with PN sailing. I prefer that at the club level, since it gets more people on the water (we race with monos, too). I agree with most that the PN numbers will never be perfect, but it's the best compromise out there.

When regattas get bigger, I like the OD aspect because I LEARN more from other sailors. There are no "your PN number is off", or "your design is better in these conditions" excuses. If you blow it, it's your fault. There are no major differences between the boats (at least not legally).

The PN racing involves more than just your routing (left/right/middle) and boat-boat tactics. It also involves TOC (time on course), which can benefit or hinder your strategy, depending on how "accurate" your PN / mods number is. I know of some people that "play the mods",( i.e, they drop their spin off the boat if they feel it wouldn't benefit them on a distance race that is primarily jib-reaching, using a huge jib in light air races) to get the PN, hoping to make it easier to win on corrected time. Again, it gets way into math, and I'm out to sail, not calculate!

To sum up, if you want to learn how to sail YOUR boat faster and improve your handling/tactical skills, you'll benefit most from OD, IMHO.

Help me out here guys. Is there some other kind of racing that uses handicaps? I have been trying to think of something. Motocross? Automobiles? Bicycles? Go-carts? People (running, swimming)? Horses? Dogs? Rowing? Powerboats?

I know there MUST be something else besides sailing.