Barry,
I can't see how your poll offers any answers. I might answer that I prefer racing one design, but I still believe that the Box rule is a better solution for big fleets, because regardless of which brand you prefer, you can still compete boat-for-boat. In the end, I think you HAVE to have Portsmouth, so those with modified, or rare, or unique boats have the opportunity to race their boat. I didn't participate in the pole.
It might be interesting to ask if Portsmouth racing should be eliminated, forcing racers to fit into a limited number of choices.

[ruthless process]-is used a few times --

Don,t understand the language useage ,-mischaracterizations or the misperception -

catsailors choose to purchase boats they would like to race , most preferabley in a large active class ,---don,t know anyone who is "ruthlessly forced " -

One element that really helped the sport in the 80s was a very positive image everwhere ,-especially in the media .
Its clean evironmentally vry riendly ,-healthy fun fast exciting sport with great folks .
The social aspect of a fun group -club beach setting made it more attractive to many new sailors .

That is important ,also think the international class aspect is important for many reasons .
Now in the 2000s decade we are seeing Formula type classes emerge and becomming very poular ,-these for many good reasons .
Helping develop numerous design development classes in basic each L and type category will be most benificial to the future of the sport .

As one example to answer the question, the potential solution for I-17 is to group all single handed spin rigged similar L -B boats in a large class ,-then encourage other existing single handers to add the spin of equililant size and race in a large single handed spin fleet of 17s and 18 s -set specs to equalize them in formula and encourage the resurection of numerous existing boats out there to modify and refit as most older boats need new sails periodically .--that will over a few years grow large same rating classes .
Same with the older 18s ,--as the TheMightyHobie18 poster recently with new sq top main which really helped the speed noted ,- Add a similar sized spin and snuffer and race locally in a F-18 equal rating class ,--if large numbers F-18 AND a F-18 rated class ,if smaller numbers all race together .
Very similar speeds so handicap time is not needed ,-first across wins !-THIS APPEALS TO MOST is well understood ,is spectator riendly ,and as many have noted most fun .
This modification of older boats into equal rating class allows very inexpensive entry level boats that fit potentially into a large class. --If you want new people in the sport or a way to get many of the old ones back put them on a start with 50 other 18s w spin ,--It produces the best close fair equal racing that really is great fun as several others have noted in this thread.
Much of buoys racing particularly in large fleet starts is THE START ,-some say its 60% of the race ,--In P rated starts you can work into a great one only to have a larger -lighter boat drive over the top placing you in bad air ,no where to tack , for the entire first beat placing you way back or worse watching others in class up to windard in clear air that were behind at the start round way ahead .
Large light fast boats in P RATING -enjoy this huge advantage ,which again is a very large part of buoys racing .
-Once into racing in fair equal similar speed class as crew or inexpensive older boats new sailors can then move up to the new Tiger -N-F-18 -Mystere or any new F-18.
It is something missing now in N A but should be encouraged in future years in all F-class L categories ,-16 -18 -18 HT 20 -MAYBE 20 HT -and 22s ---single handed spin F class as well as existing development A Class and other existing classes we are beginning to see here finally and will see more of in the future .

Key for the future is to recognize what has worked ,--what is working now in creating new interest and is successful round the globe ,---that seems to be Formula type classes ,--then how to help facilitate that ,--maybe evan add a more integral design measurement rating system to help existing boats modify to equal rating ,--and to help new builders find a ready made large class to help insure good racing and a market for them .
Seems like a win win win situation ,-except for a few older more obscure types that would not fall into a F type category ,-open rating is still available but becomes more of a who is faster on which L category type race .-

It is important for designers to have fredom to innovate ,--just look at the marvleous speed machines on the speed record attempts ,-new classes will continue but many of them can fall within basic specs of L B W and sail area in formula and still reach thier design objectives ,just as many early designs did .
originally A B C D classes were defined with basic specs and set up for speed trials and as a means to choose an Olympic class cat .
H -broke off and domoinated the U S market in the 70s -80s -with trailerable colorfull cats with a great dealer support and fleet class club oriented structure around a brand name and original designer -Hobie Alter .
numbers -fleets clubs and whole divisions -{as in 10 }- have faded and disappeared into the late 80s and 90s -- many other types and designs are being sailed however.
Formula was started by taking ISAF ratings for cats {design measurement rating } and targeting the ideal cat design specs in 18 ft w spin and having all be able to build or modify to it .
This success can be duplicated in each Length W type CATEGORY , --the design measurement rating was key because it allows a basic understanding of design and how to achieve fair equal racing by design ----not brand type ,--not by average handicap times .

So -rather than a P rating system with 5 windspeeds and endless modification factors that totally confuse most ,that sometimes alienates new sailors , that other mono class sailors do not prefer having raced in class structures ,-that many do not want to sail in ,-that has not renewed any interest or gained new widespread support ,-that some dislike due to the handicap timed aspect that rewards poorly sailed boat types , that have "craveats "-problems rating older boats , that seems to be a partial reason for fewer numbers ,-etc
--Then perhaps ,just perhaps ,-the direction the sport has taken , and seems to be taking here towards design Formula type classes and classification is what we should be focusing on ,helping facilitate , and setting up integral racing class structures and an equal rating system based on similar box rule type design measurement with .

Please respond to the follow up poll question in the next post.

Assuming that all classes which fail to average 10 boats/ regatta for a year and all Portsmouth racing are done away with by the racing clubs in your region; and you have to make a boat switch to go racing. Answer the next question:

Hey Mary -

Didn't mean to make a slight against the Wave - you know I love that boat! - my point was just that even what is considered one-design, in my opinion, isn't really. The Wave is an example of a boat that in just a few years has been changed by the manufacturer several times, not just in the way it's rigged, but even in the way it's constructed. It sure seems, with varying degrees, that is the case with just about any boat right now.

To your question - of course they were some of Kirk's rental boats. I don't want to make too much of this - it was just something that happened that seemed to prove the point that boats in OD classes aren't necessarily equal. It wasn't a scientific study or anything - we just grabbed Waves of varying ages, tried to even things up by putting the newest sails on the oldest boats, and went racing. Nobody was upset or angry at the way the boats performed - we were just having fun sailing, and the results made us laugh that much harder. It was a really good time.

Anyway - all the discourse is good to read to get folks perspectives. Mary, I can't imagine having more fun with only two or three other boats on the course rather than a whole fleet of mixed designs. But that's just the difference between why you love racing and why I love racing... we get different things out of it. Which was the original point I didn't make very well, I guess.

Hey Dan -

We had four of them and we did six races, I think. We put the newest sails on the oldest boats to try and even things out a little, though none of these were ragged out - I've seen boats in much worse shape than these at Nationals. If I recall correctly, the newest and the oldest boats were fastest. The newest had the racks, which made everyone moan about the weight initially.

I hope it doesn't come off like I don't like the Wave - I do, very much. I was just trying to make a point, albeit poorly, that in my opinion, there is an awful lot of variation within what is considered a multihull one-design. Not just the hardware and the sail, either - it's not intended as a criticism, just an observation.

Hey Jake -

Sounds like you had a great time. The second Wave Nationals is still one of my best regatta memories.

While I agree that a great sail makes a big difference, I'm not sure I agree with you on the sail being the only real differentiator for the Wave - maybe I'm recalling things incorrectly, but aren't there a couple of different stock downhaul systems? And I was of the understanding that the method of manufacturing the hulls had changed at some point, in addition to some of the stock hardware. I don't think that is a bad thing, nor do I think it's limited to the Wave. I guess I was trying to make the point that I feel there is a great deal of variation within what is accepted as a multihull one-design. I'll be on the start line with a bunch of Tigers next month. I can't wait - it'll be fun. But I expect a pretty good variety of sails and rigging within this "strict" one-design national championship.

John,
I think part of the reason for variations in boats within one-design catamaran classes is that most of them do not have strong class associations that are willing to stand up to the manufacturers and make it clear that any changes must be approved by a vote of the class members before such modifications or modified hulls or sails or weights, etc., will be class legal for racing purposes.

I looked over most of the other boats and they all seemed to have the same downhauls and equipment - I was most concerned with the downhaul because it was not very quickly adjusted. The only difference I could see was that the newer boats did not have any access ports (the older ones have one in the back of each hull). I am certainly no expert on Hobie Wave history though!

Hi J

good post and thoughts as always -

Questioned the use of the word Nazi --Rating Nazi or OD Nazi in a post above ,-
it does not apply to either class racing or P-rating advocates ,-also questioned the terms used in a post below -"forced " --radial notion " etc --these are also non applicable in all but an attempt at vague humor to the subject .
Reading the news today and ran across this great editorial and drew paralells to this discussion and the use of language and terms within to descibe those with different viewpoints and the extremes people are taken to unneccesarily .
G Will -commenting on a grant study by 4 professors who recieved 400,000 to provide similar false types of applied mischaracterizations to the different subject matter and topic of the editorial-
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36777-2003Aug8.html
--
These 4 prof. obviously have not yet encountered the concept of self irony in their pretence of depicting others with differing viewpoints than their own.

and yes ,-do realize the other side uses phrases like looney left etc and are often as bad ,-but however are not generally paid 400.000 in grants for it .

Like you also wanted to offer some related {though subject varied } observations on racing structure and opinion also .

From several posts of P advocates ,--it seems many now with much fewer numbers in the sport in recent years have never really experienced great large class racing on equal boat design .
The obvious question arrives ,--from what experience or in what contexts are they making or forming the opinion that P-rating is preferred ,--having nothing to really compare it to .--?

Having never raced in a development class like AClass cat designs or a Formula Class type racing structure how can any provide any accurate accessment or conclude P-rated racing IS the preferred race structure . Polls and opinion here indicate the contrary .The current interest and growth is in Formula classes .

What other rating system has been actually compared to P-rating per results at an event ,--and again how can any form an objective fair opinion in the absence of any honest direct comparison ,--Sailwave Scoring set up by Colin has ISAF rating for cats --Texel Rating ,--and P rating ,

The best solution is to help clubs fleets event organizers -boat dealers and builders to get involved in building large racing groups per Length category ,
Set up base Formula groups in each and have an integral compatable design measurement rating system to work constructively with it .
This allows older boats that need to be refit periodically as all do the opportunity to match design specs in L CATEGORY of sail area and other modification as desired for equal fair rated racing groups .
This can be accomplshed by more open Formula rules that allow stock and same rated modified categories in class or by a seperate design measurement rating system .

Existing design measurement does a great job but believe one added windspeed calc is needed based on beam and other design features that take effect above 8 mph when hulls fly and crews trap out and the largest jump in boat speed occurs . --Existing P RATING could also be factored into a combination rating system ,-as outlined in the TIP concept rating for cats .
It needs work and better minds than mine to formulate all aspects of it properly but believe the outlined concept of it and expanded concepts that will really help the sport are also correct .-Looking forward to working on it with others as the interest and current direction indicates it will in the near future .

I don't know whether it is clear what you are saying in your second option in that poll. You have explained it to me personally and on this forum several times, but I still find it a difficult concept to grasp. I understand racing Portsmouth and I understand racing one-design. But I don't understand how to do them simultaneously. I'm trying to be open-minded; but just thinking about it makes me feel kind of schizophrenic.

Hi Mary,

Mark refered to "like CatFight" when he was talking about this. For CatFight trophies, everyone is scored Portsmouth within their start, one set of trophies for each start (Low Portsmouth Spinnaker, Low Portsmouth Non-spinnaker, Single Handed, Medium Portsmouth, High Portsmouth). For each class that has at least 4 boats, there are CRAM trophies. Classes include "box rule" classes like A-Boats and F-18, and traditional One-Designs like Inter 17R, Inter 20, Nacra 5.8, Hobie 16, Mystere 4.3, etc. These classes, since every boat within the class starts together, race boat-for-boat within their class for CRAM trophies while still getting to compete for CatFight trophies based on thier PN (wind adjusted).

Somehow my post got into the wrong thread, but doesn't matter. Thanks, Les. Your explanation makes more sense than Mark's descriptions to me in the past.

Hi Keith,



The todo list has been updated

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

Great!

Being a software guy myself I felt bad about kind of blind-siding you with that one instead of putting the comments through the right channels.

I suspect that a long-running series puts a few different demands on scoring software than a weekend regatta. I'll be better about getting comments to you in the future!

No worries! I don't use Sailwave much myself but when I do it can drive me nuts; there is so much more to do and to sort out...

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com