| Yet another rules question #231697 04/29/11 11:16 AM 04/29/11 11:16 AM |
Joined: Mar 2002 Posts: 284 Norfolk, VA Dan Berger OP
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Posts: 284 Norfolk, VA | OK, This is more of a 2 part situation.
When two boats approach a mark and are within a few boat lengths, the outside one has to give room to the inside one to round the mark. I understand they are allowed a proper rounding, but nothing more. The outer boat only needs to give enough room for the inner boat to get around the mark and nothing else. They can't push the inner boat into the mark, but if the inner boat touches the outer boat and the outer boat has given the inner boat enough room, they have fouled the outer boat. Is this a proper understanding of the rule?
Then, how about this scenereo: A boat is approaching on starboard and will be the inner boat, the (soon to be) outer boat is on port. The outer boat (still on port) must give right of way PERIOD even if the starboard boat (still closer to the mark) sails past the mark and does not round it, right? I mean, the port boat may be trying to make the mark, but he can't assume the starboard boat will try to make a close mark rounding?
This is why I ask:
I'm positive I didn't have any rights from a simple port/starboard situation, but I think the other boat pulled a dangerous maneuver.
I was the Port boat--very close to rounding the gate and continuing on port. Facing downwind, this was the left gate, so I was coming in the center of the gates and hanging a left. I was on an A cat and a spinnaker boat on Starboard came in to the mark from the left with the spin up. I couldn't hear what he was saying, all I heard was 'Mark.' His layline was dead even with both marks, so he was coming in at 90 degrees. I assumed he would be rounding the close mark (that he was about to pass) and wanted room, but I saw a red flag in that he was REALLY close and didn't look like he was even thinking about snuffing his spin. I thought he would try to round the mark and do it all at one time since it was light wind. Turns out, he sailed very close to the left gate, in between the gates and rounded the right one! I had to slam over to starboard and basically stall for him to pass me, then I jibed back to port and rounded the mark.
Now, I'm thinking that wasn't a good move on his part and that he could have caused a lot of damage by not considering what was going on at the mark. I think he had all the rights in the world, but it was a thoughtless, **** move!?
Dan Berger Norfolk, VA A Cat USA139 Supercat 15
| | | Re: Yet another rules question
[Re: mikekrantz]
#231701 04/29/11 11:50 AM 04/29/11 11:50 AM |
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,152 tampa, fl ksurfer2
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Posts: 1,152 tampa, fl | This is a tricky situation with small gates.
If you are outside of the 3-boat circle then simple port/starboard rules are in effect.
If you are inside 3 boatlengths of either mark, then Rule 18 (Mark-Room) takes precedence.
Assuming you are inside the 3-boat circle, then:
If you had continued on port towards the Left mark, the starboard boat would have rights as the inside boat and be entitled to room at the Left mark, and that includes room for a takedown and gybe around the mark.
However, had you gybed over to starboard and gone for the Right mark, you would have been entitled to room at the mark as the inside boat. He would have had to do a takedown and round outside of you. What if his intention is to go to the right mark? Does the Port/Starboard rule take precendence again? Or since they are in the 3 boat length circle, can the port boat force him to gybe and round the left mark?
If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one | | | Re: Yet another rules question
[Re: ksurfer2]
#231702 04/29/11 11:57 AM 04/29/11 11:57 AM |
Joined: Mar 2002 Posts: 284 Norfolk, VA Dan Berger OP
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Posts: 284 Norfolk, VA | Thought I'd add a crude drawing of the incident: Situation
Last edited by Dan Berger; 04/29/11 12:10 PM.
Dan Berger Norfolk, VA A Cat USA139 Supercat 15
| | | Re: Yet another rules question
[Re: Dan Berger]
#231703 04/29/11 12:23 PM 04/29/11 12:23 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Rather it's legal or not ,it's a totally douchebag, unsafe move. Let me guess: Yellow N-20?
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Yet another rules question
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#231705 04/29/11 01:02 PM 04/29/11 01:02 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | Let me guess: Yellow N-20? slap-chop....to da nutz
Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 04/29/11 01:03 PM.
Jay
| | | Re: Yet another rules question
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#231708 04/29/11 01:10 PM 04/29/11 01:10 PM |
Joined: Mar 2002 Posts: 284 Norfolk, VA Dan Berger OP
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Posts: 284 Norfolk, VA | Rumor has it that it was a yellow I20. I'm otherwise trying to keep it anonymous.
Dan Berger Norfolk, VA A Cat USA139 Supercat 15
| | | Re: Yet another rules question
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#231709 04/29/11 01:12 PM 04/29/11 01:12 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 833 St. Louis, MO, Mike Hill
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Posts: 833 St. Louis, MO, | Thoughtless move or not. You are the keep clear boat. If that means forcing you to gybe then that's what it means. Once you gybe then you are inside boat and get room at the other mark. I don't like the way the rules work here either because boats can force you to gybe and then gybe for the favored mark. Just part of the game now that I understand it. Don't count on your competitors to understand it though.
Notice that rule 18.4 does not apply at a gate.
18.4 Gybing When an inside overlapped right-of-way boat must gybe at a mark to sail her proper course, until she gybes she shall sail no farther from the mark than needed to sail that course. Rule 18.4 does not apply at a gate mark.
Mike Hill N20 #1005
| | | Re: Yet another rules question
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#231712 04/29/11 02:07 PM 04/29/11 02:07 PM |
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,490 On the Water P.M.
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Posts: 2,490 On the Water | Let me guess: Yellow N-20? slap-chop....to da nutz I don't think it was Tad. Since I was there, and I sail a spin boat, and it is yellow, and it's a N20, and I recall a similar incident at the C mark, I'll assume it was me. So much for anonymous. . . First off to Dan. I would never maliciously attempt a maneuver as you describe. There was no danger and that is really painting a picture with a broad stroke. I saw it from a much better and different perspective, the drawing was not accurate, and other boats were in play. All the same, my apologies to you since you feel offended, and if perception allows it to be perceived as not a good move, so be it. I'm am sorry. So here's my take: It was light winds and SLOW. I had a very clear view of how this situation was playing out and the boat speeds of all involved. Both port A's were concentrating on mark rounding. I was NOT reaching into the mark at 90 degrees to the wind, but was sailing downwind with a layline to the far (right downwind) gate. I was sailing between two port tack A-cats. Jack Young(A-cat) was my leeward on port and Dan was my windward on port (A-cat). A fourth boat Trey (N20} coming into the far right gate on port and ahead of me. Dan was further back to the mark than how I perceive the drawing and was slowing in his speed. Jack was just about to approach/begin his rounding. What Dan partially heard me hail was ("I'm sailing to the far mark"). I announce my intentions to him. Dan, assumptions aside, the only way I could have possibly gibed to the left mark, I would STILL have to sail past you as that was the only way I would have made the left mark. Perception of what happened between us is obviously different. Perceive it a shitty move within my rights, and with that I apologize, as it was not my intention.
Philip USA #1006 | | | Re: Yet another rules question
[Re: Mike Hill]
#231713 04/29/11 02:08 PM 04/29/11 02:08 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,969 brucat
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Posts: 3,969 | Without digging up all the rule references, I'd say starboard has rights, all the way across to the other gate. It's one of the (somewhat) recent changes.
I seem to recall a long thread here a while back regarding this exact issue.
I also think this has the potential for disaster written all over it, but I think the rule was written with a specific (and good) itention. It escapes me at the moment.
All that aside, what the schizzle was he doing coming in at that angle? Assuming your drawing is correct (with respect to wind direction and boat angles); that, as they say, is NOT fast...
EDIT: OK, Philip and I posted at the same time. Looks like the drawing is in question. Typical stuff for a protest hearing...
Mike
Last edited by brucat; 04/29/11 02:12 PM.
| | | Re: Yet another rules question
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#231715 04/29/11 02:23 PM 04/29/11 02:23 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | As far as I know I didn't make anyone angry at Spring Fever.
At least nobody who wasn't already angry with me. Hey I tried to say hi you basically told me to piss off.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Yet another rules question
[Re: Dan Berger]
#231717 04/29/11 03:03 PM 04/29/11 03:03 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | I had one of those with another F18 on the same day (I think) - I was on port running a little deep to get to the left mark (left as I was approaching). The F18 was overstood and coming in with speed at a relatively sharp angle with some speed. The left mark was very favored with the wind and I, assuming he was going to round the left mark, left him room to round. Thinking about it though, if he had intended to go to the right mark, I would have fouled him. As it was, he gybed around the mark inside me and turned head to wind right into it (I think he had his mind set that the wind would be square with the course). I had setup to be on his sterns hoping he was going to round deep leaving me a window but had to duck him while he played with the mark. After first saying he would do a penalty turn, he later complained that I didn't leave him enough room. I asked my crew to just remember where his rudder casting was when I started my bear away to avoid him (it was at my bow / forestay bridle) as evidence that he was actually clear ahead at the moment he turned up into the mark. I lost track of him and can't say whether or not he did his turn.
I remember there was a reason that the marks were to be placed so that the "boat-lengths zones" didn't overlap - it made the rules much clearer. I'm not sure that's the case anymore (I need to read up).
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Yet another rules question
[Re: Jake]
#231747 04/30/11 09:19 PM 04/30/11 09:19 PM |
Joined: May 2007 Posts: 127 Rock Hill,SC KevinRejda
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Posts: 127 Rock Hill,SC | You (RC) gotta keep the zones from overlapping (RC101) 3 boat lengths + 3 boat lengths + safety margin = 7 or 8 or 9 boat lengths minimum. This can stll create havoc as I can sail into and out of the circle around one mark on my way to the other (especially if I have overstood). Decide early, take your lumps if you have to, don't press a bad position
Kevin Rejda Rock Hill, SC
| | | Re: Yet another rules question
[Re: David Ingram]
#231752 05/01/11 05:29 AM 05/01/11 05:29 AM |
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine ThunderMuffin
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Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine | As far as I know I didn't make anyone angry at Spring Fever.
At least nobody who wasn't already angry with me. Hey I tried to say hi you basically told me to piss off. Really? I smiled and said "Hello David, I'm having a nice life." Which is, if I recall correctly what you told me to do. I thought you pretty much told me to piss off. | | | Re: Yet another rules question
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#231902 05/04/11 11:03 AM 05/04/11 11:03 AM |
Joined: Mar 2002 Posts: 984 2017 F18 Americas Site Dan_Delave
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Posts: 984 2017 F18 Americas Site | To me the picture does not make sense so I had to change it a bit for how the marks should look. I think that the leeward gate is a pretty important part of racing. I personally really like the tactics that one has to decide, sometimes at the last second. You should always be thinking about the best way to get out of this alive! If the marks are as skewed as you pictured then the port rounding mark would be so favored that you may think everyone would round it, but...you will have to watch closely have have your bail out ready. The starboard boat is coming into the mark with rights. In the three boat length circle they still have rights as the inside boat. If the rights do not change a boat is allowed to round the mark tactically. This means that they are allowed to round the mark in any fashion they feel is the best for them to continue to the next mark, providing they do not go outside of three boat lengths to do so. It is not for the burdened boat to give them just enough room so they can get their boat between that boat and the mark. That is more similar to a seaman-like rounding. If you decided to Gybe and be inside boat at the starboard rounding mark then rights would have passed hands, from the Starboard boat to the inside boat. In this case you are given room to round in a seaman like way (as opposed to tactical). Meaning that it may not be the best rounding you could have, as if you were alone at the mark. From blue to red is where rights change. Light green is rights through the rounding. Dan | | | Re: Yet another rules question
[Re: Dan_Delave]
#231918 05/04/11 02:20 PM 05/04/11 02:20 PM |
Joined: Mar 2002 Posts: 284 Norfolk, VA Dan Berger OP
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Posts: 284 Norfolk, VA | OK, so it was Phillip--I really didn't want to call him out or accuse him of anything. I don't think he would purposely try to foul me, so there are no bad feelings.
However, I had a 9 hour drive home and I got to thinking about the situation and how the rules play into it, which is why I posted the question in the first place. So, this is not a beat-up-on-Phillip post.
Practically everyone was rounding the left mark and heading back up the course. A very few people rounded the other mark, but the left side (as drawn) was definitely favored. I was the B boat and eventually followed the light green route. In retrospect, the dark green route would have been better given the circumstance, but there was a nice line of wind to the left, not so much on the right.
Dan Berger Norfolk, VA A Cat USA139 Supercat 15
| | | Re: Yet another rules question
[Re: Dan Berger]
#231921 05/04/11 03:58 PM 05/04/11 03:58 PM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA Isotope235
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Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA | In the 2008 (and prior) rules, there was a lot of confusion regarding rule 18 (Room at Marks and Obstructions). Most of that stemmed from the fact that when rule 18 conflicted with rules 10-13, then those rules didn't apply. A lot of sailors didn't understand that that right-of-way sometimes changed when boats were about to round or pass a mark.
Starting in 2009, that changed. The new Rule 18 "Mark Room", no longer overrides Part A Rules. Right-of-way doesn't change - instead a boat entitled to mark room can be exonerated for breaking rules 10-13, 15, or 16. "Mark room" has also been explictly defined. I've seen several explanations so far that are based on the former rule 18, not the curret one.
Even so, another look at this scenerio shows that Rule 18 never even comes into play. It really is just a Starboard/Port situation. Rule 10 requires P to keep clear of S. Being outside boat near a mark doesn't change that.
No rule requires S to sail her proper course, so P must be observant of what S does - not what P thinks S should do. If there was thoughtlessness or danger in this scenerio, it is because of P's misunderstanding, not S's.
I hope that helps, Eric US SAILING Certified Judge Member, Area D Appeals Committee | | | Re: Yet another rules question
[Re: Isotope235]
#231925 05/04/11 06:01 PM 05/04/11 06:01 PM |
Joined: Oct 2002 Posts: 606 Maryland Kris Hathaway
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Posts: 606 Maryland | Exactly, no sympathy for approaching a mark on port with starboard traffic.
I've had an even worse situation of coming into the gates on starboard with a chute when on the same course with dinghies lined up on port tack. They got an eyeful of the speed and angle that we carry relative them. Rest of the day, they were very mindful of coming in on starboard.
Kris Hathaway | | |
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