| Re: What is the ideal beach cat design
[Re: BRoberts]
#23190 08/19/03 10:56 AM 08/19/03 10:56 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Thanks for your reply Bill,
I think we are comparing apples to oranges by trying to get the same sail area to righting moment ratio between a 10' wide, 251 sq ft Tornado and a nut busting 8.5' wide boat with Carl's 300 sq ft worth of sails. I'm not trying to defend Carl's desire for monster sail area but I am trying to defend the addition of racks to the 6.0NA to achieve considerable more righting moment with minimal weight gain. OK, my 6.0 is a good deal heavier than the Tornado and even with Racks, I'm not claiming it will be just as fast, but with my current upwind sail area (which is actually greater), I can achieve the same sail area to righting moment (same 320lbs of crew weight; although this is pretty light for a 6.0) ratio double trapped on a 2.5' rack. Add Carl's monster sail area and yeah, our boat + racks would have to be 18.9' wide.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: -beach cat design -and major events
[Re: Jake]
#23191 08/19/03 01:06 PM 08/19/03 01:06 PM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 800 MI sail6000 OP
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Posts: 800 MI | Hi Jake & Bill , Great to have interesting exchange of views on ideal design which may be so many different ideal concepts based on intent of use. Some include {cruising -racing } --then the practical limitations -{budget constrainsts and size limitation ,-14 footer or 120 ft Playstation },-, , {geographic location},--need to trailer,-- or lake and protected harbor type sailing to ocean or Great Lakes type sailing in seas and surf , and{ sailing experience } -racing background ,-type of racing -races in a large class or smaller rated groups ,-type of boat sailed ,-{all relate their veiws based on existing experiences }. Think your in agreement on the wing aspect ,-as Bill noted the addition of 5 ft wings on the 30 design . To revisit the last comment in the original post --- future racing and events -- The 30 seems like the ideal craft or at least one class {maybe another at 20 with wings}-for it when another ProSail type series {raced on F-40S and H-21S }or similar interesting major distance race event capable of drawing in a major sports marketing entrapenure and ESPN or TV time ,- {peole will watch putting for an hour --amazing } The sport needs this type of exposure as one aspect towards its renewal and increased interest in it . It was a great experience to race in Prosail and the Ultimate Yacht Race series on H-21s BACK IN 88 as seen on ESPN and NBC Sports . They picked the breeziest venues and some of the major sailing centers around the country ,-NewPort R I -and Mystic Con .-Miami ,-Great Lakes area ,on St Clair -Corpus Cristy Tex ,-San Francisco ,-etc ,-- Another sure way to create international interest would be the always interesting human drama aspect of distance racing on high speed cats and the course raced ,-The 1000 mile races and the Tybee 500 draw this and international interest , With larger potentially faster craft like 30s the course raced should become larger ,-Racing across the Atlantic has always been a great one ,-earlier OSTAR races and other examples indicate this as well as around the globe races ,-which seem too extreme to most sailing though feilds of "growlers" -ice chuncks in the S-Ocean ,-but across the Atlantic , seems very possible and ecomonically feasable on the 30s . --The 120 ftrs too expensive or evan 60 tris --often too fragile and expensive ,--the 30s may be the ideal craft . Maybe it is just my very excellent sailing teamate in the Tybee 500 this year ,Gale ,- http://www.galebrowning.com/ who is targeting around alone in 06--- that has me thinking in these terms ,but think racing F-30s across the Atlantic in internation competition with live camera aboard each would be a fasinating film all sailors and all people would enjoy seeing , something very marketable particularly in this sports crazed extreme reality T V type trend currently .- It would draw in all types of racing enthusiasts from numerous sailing classes around the globe. The sponsor idealy would provide 20 to 25 boats and allow entries of teams of 3 plus an alternate in teams from around the globe ,and provide all aspects of event organization ,-- needed modification for an Atlantic race like reef systems ,-storage of water and supplies would be needed ,and a dry safe in hull sleeping area --assume this could be accomplished along with other design aspects geared towards this more extreme event ,along with standards of EPIRBS -phones GPS ,-flares etc that have become the norm in the 1000 mile races ,-teams would outfit and supply themselves as the major team expence along with transportation of personel .- The transformation of what will be called -THE aMERICAS cUP ON cATS -on HT 18s will be interesting ,-but think something bigger is needed to capture the imagination of the general public . Both sides of {the big pond } would get very interested in this type of event ,- For now we have to settle for the 500 or 1000 mile coastal versions ,-but think we will see this in the future . Be ready Bill and Tom ,--and potential Sailing teams out there .- Always good to place interesting ideas and concepts out there ,-for ideal design and events -food for thought Carl . | | | Re: -beach cat design -and major events
[Re: sail6000]
#23193 08/19/03 03:08 PM 08/19/03 03:08 PM |
Joined: Apr 2002 Posts: 591 Bradenton, FL Sycho15
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Posts: 591 Bradenton, FL | I'm sorry, but I fail to see how sponsor-provided boats sailing across the Atlantic is going to gain the interest of the non-sailing public.
Even golfers take their clubs home with them.
It still seems like a very expensive race you're dreaming about.
I think you'd get more people to watch 10 Tornado teams racing across the Atlantic. Slightly less extreme, would be 10 Reynolds 21-style boats. Call them maximum beach-cats or minimum cruisers if you will. An added flair would be if the teams each built their own boats. You'd have stitch-and-glue plywood designs going up against strip-planked cedar or foam-sandwich boats. Kinda like a poor-mans Paris-Dakaar race across open ocean.
G-Cat 5.7M #583 (sail # currently 100) in Bradenton, FL
Hobie 14T
| | | Physics will not be ignored...
[Re: BRoberts]
#23200 08/20/03 12:23 PM 08/20/03 12:23 PM |
Joined: Apr 2002 Posts: 695 Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA Seeker
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Posts: 695 Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA | Very interesting discussion…it is amazing how Mr. Roberts can explain over and over again how things work in the real engineering world, only to have the catamaran community hide it’s head in the sand and ignore the reality of Physics.
Seems, everyone wants a faster boat…BUT…they artificially paint themselves into a corner with self imposed limitations on Length, Width, Weight, and Sail area, Mast height…etc… You know one of the definitions of insanity is “one who wants to do things the same way they have always done them, but achieve different results.
I am starting to come to the conclusion that “racing rules” have done more to harm the development of boat design, be it power or sail…mono hull or multi hull…than any other factor. To get a very good handle on this topic read “Seaworthiness, The Forgotten Factor” By C.A. Marchaj. It talks about how racing rules have driven ocean going Mono Hulls farther and farther away from seaworthy designs, as designers have gone to extremes to “cheat” the rules…he speaks of how many of today’s mono hull designs have little to do with what is “best” at sea…and everything to do with twisting design perimeters, forcing them to design in a self imposed box. All for the elusive carrot of ‘fair racing”. Which for all practical purposes will never be achieved 100% …
Some where along the line things went way off track…no longer is it about designing and building the best boat regardless of limitations. “Trailing width” has become one of the “all powerful” limiting factors of Catamaran design. I find it amazing that everyone pretty much acknowledges this fact, and accepts it without protest. Instead of limiting “on the water” performance because of trailering…why not attack the real problem…the transportation of the boat to the water.
It appears that SC/ARC has made great strides in that direction, but the majority seem easily defeated by this problem… so quick to “roll over and play dead”. We sent a man to the moon, are you going to tell me we can’t come up with a better solution in transporting a 400 lb. boat?
I find it very sad that the designers of true innovation and superior products (like Mr. Roberts) who strive for the “best” within practical limits…who refuse to be put in a box…find limited commercial success, while those who are more adept at marketing than design/engineering, fair much better in the economic arena.
I will venture to say that until the catamaran community is willing to shake off its self imposed chains of “racing design rules” (which I don’t see happening), it will be artificially frozen in the doldrums of mediocrity.
The 38-year-old Tornado Catamaran’s current level of performance when compared to the “latest and greatest” drives this point home with undeniable clarity.
In our new “ politically correct” society”… we have come to expect that things will conform to “our reality”. Unfortunately…or dare I say fortunately…physics has some frustrating lessons for those that choose to ignore it's Laws...
Bob | | | Agreed
[Re: Seeker]
#23203 08/20/03 03:50 PM 08/20/03 03:50 PM |
Joined: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay Luiz
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Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay | If trailing width is THE rule framing all comercially designed beach cats, then the "ideal beach cat" needs a new and more user friendly folding system to feature a larger width without sacrificing trailerability. Reducing the dry docking area needed in beaches and clubs also helps.
Note that small cabin multihulls not much bigger then beach cats boomed after different folding systems were developed 20 years ago, notably the Farrier system.
Would a scaled down folding system help? It's hard to imagine a Farrier folding system in a beach cat, but maybe the swing-wing system could be adapted with relative ease. The extra length would not help, though: a folded ARC 30 would result too long for trailing without a permit - but still easier to assemble. Maybe a "swing-float" ARC22?
Anyway, I agree with the "no rules" approach to multihull design. Faster, safer, and cheaper is better. And that's it.
Luiz
| | | Re: Agreed
[Re: Luiz]
#23205 08/20/03 04:16 PM 08/20/03 04:16 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | I see nothing wrong with the telescoping beams on the SC20...we have several in our club. This system works very well unless you take into account the width of the few boat ramps we have to use. Then you might consider a way to extend the beams once on the water.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Physics will not be ignored...
[Re: MauganN20]
#23206 08/20/03 10:35 PM 08/20/03 10:35 PM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 851 US Western Continental Shelf hobiegary
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Posts: 851 US Western Continental Shelf | I am surely not an authority here, but I do have some comments that I think are uselful.
Even though I have facilitated the one man righting of a H21SE, I have never seen either a H21SE nor a SC20 being expanded from trailering width to sailing width.
But I would like to point out one thing that is quite obvious to me, that a H21SE is very difficult to expand to its sailing width.
While many cats, including the Stilleto 27 and the SC20 have straight cross-beams, the H21SE has curved cross-beams. They are cured as if they belonged to a TheMightyHobie18.
My bottom line: Expanding a boat with beams that are curved, has got to be a VERY difficult manuever!!!!
GARY
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