no one seems to be bringing up the winged aluminum rig which appears to be really fast,

Which is the future of the 20 right? Not that anyone is buying any these days.

This is similar to the start of the Wave Class of Hobie. We started the Intl Wave Class Assn, and made our own rules. You can buy sails and tramps that are very good quality and lower prices. Competition is the reason. Everything has to measasure in. Good part is you can have your sail cut flat (if you are light, sail in flat water and/or big air), or full (if you are heavy, sail in big seas and/or light air). Just take a look at our rules and constitution at www.waveclass.com and use that as a template.
Rick

Thanks Rick. I do think there needs to be a push again to form our own class. The "rumors" of new sails coming our (I think) was just to prevent us from doing this. The SanDiego crowd seems to be on the same page here with wanting to shop different sailmakers as long as they measure in. I really think the BS move with a "flatter cut spin" was just to get us to shut up.

<****. It just wasn't implemented with conviction or regularly communicated about.

I don't know what's going on in other regions of the country, but the new spins are fast. There is merit to them. At S2S, 4 of the class boats were sailing with new class sails. Charlie was sailing with a brand new Performance Sails spin on the Alum rig. He was beat downwind by Scott with the new cut EP spin ((sailing DDW for over 10 miles. The start was DDW with the kites up.) he was later passed on a reach by Charlie)). Mike was mixing it up also with a new EP spin, although he did not have it dialed in like Scott did. Remind you, this was the first time either of them had sailed the new EP spins, and were still trying to figure out luff tension, angles, etc. I was impressed to see him first to snuff the kite.

There is still some strength, a least on the Gulf Coast, in the class. The racing within the fleet was competitive and tight, even after several miles into a distance race. Gotta say, racing is fun when it is boat against boat.

So, you guys are ok with letting Charlie race in the N20 class with a totally different rig? Just cause it's from PC? Different cut sails including a spin that hoists to a different point on the mast but not a spin that is the same size and hoists to the SAME point as factory?

This is another festering pimple on the butt. I don't like it, and it is what it is, and I don't like
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the fact that I didn't buy that boat.

The aluminum wing mast rig is a different animal, and deserves its own thread. Good on Charlie, he made sure it was certified before he bought it. I'm off to a lunch meeting. . .

One solution is create a new Nacra 20 level rated class.
It would include:
Stock boats approved by Performance
Stock boats with new sticks and sails approved by Performance
Modified N20's with custom sails that measure into the stock sail plan.

Get a new guesstimate from Portsmouth/PHRF for the new class and carry on. The Nacra 6.0's did this with the listing of the N6.0 with the NE chute.

For each event on the schedule... let the registered boats politic with each other as to what the class will be. You assume that everyone wants the largest possible class to race with wand will sort it out prior to the starts. Back in the day, the hobie sailors would get a new sail and then send it off for a recut to get what they wanted. The racers let this slide because it made for better racing. I personally never saw a protest over.... Your sail was recut...blah... DSQ!

Forget about class sponsored development... the rest of the world shops for a sailmaker that will deliver fast sails and good customer service individually. Your sort through the hype and BS from each sailmaker and buy what you want. When you get the sail and mast to match your crew weight and sailing style... You are VERY VERY HAPPY. Its a fun part of the game.

We got a new North #1 for the J35.. Put it up for the first time and it sucked... Lots of experience on the boat and we pulled every string combination we could think of...sucked... put the old one back on the next day and we were back up into 3rd... a month later the sailmaker came out.... Tweaks that we did not make later.... the sail looks perfect and is fast. My point.... service is an essential factor in what you purchase!

You are buying a sail design, cloth, construction quality and a service. It's part of the game.

Just organize the game to be fair ... label the class properly and move on.

Rick White did not emphasize this key point... the slang is to speak of the "WAVE" class but in fact... they have a distinct class name from the HCA Wave class. It is in fact a level rated class that includes the stock wave.

(We would never have known that the GT300 N20 class was actually a level rated N20 class prior to your post)

The 6.0NA went from a non-spin to a spinnaker configuration so it really required a different portsmouth number. We're not talking about as big of a potential speed increase here (maybe 3 to 5% around the course?).

I also doubt that dividing the already small Nacra 20 class into 3 subdivisions is going to help anything. Simple is better...if opening up the sails is the answer, do it for all and change the rules. Pandora's box is already well open since there are already a large number of boats with non-nacra sails. There's no point in fighting the trend...open it, let the ratings go where they will, and hope the class continues to live on. Handicap ratings really aren't the subject. The subtext here is that the Nacra 20 sailors feel like their boats should be able to keep up with F18s around the course so they want to be able to develop the sails to do so...they also want to be able to buy sails at around the same (less expensive) price point as the F18 teams.

Personally, I was not in favor of opening the sails as a Nacra 20 owner - I preferred the one design philosophy. However, the train is already on that track and you might as well stay in the passenger compartment instead of the caboose.

Compared to the demise of the 6.0, the 20 does have something still going for it. There is not a relative competing 20 footer around. F18 has drawn some sailors away but there are still those that will always stay with the 20 footer. There will still be a need for manufacturer support for the class which will be harder to maintain if the class breaks into it's own entity and chooses to buy boat components elsewhere and people don't buy new boats.

I also don't think that the new boat prices we are seeing with the Formula 18 and Nacra 20 will be able to sustain themselves. I could buy a new boat when they were $14k but the prices have far exceeded inflation (and my wage if I want to keep having a newish truck and to maintain my home)...hopefully they will self adjust back to a more reasonable level (sub $20k). This is what will keep the Nacra 20 class alive.

My point... use the name Nacra 20 Level Class as opposed to Intl Nacra 20 One Design Class. Darline included the NE version because it made life easier for scorekeepers and sailors for the rating to be published in the table as opposed to using the adjustments each time. This addition to the table would be the same thing.

Put the level rule down on paper.... in short order... it will be the N20 class in common usage (See GT300) .... and we will know that it is a level rated class (or not care) ... a slightly different flavor then the Intl One design N20 class.

When a class has this sentiment expressed.


It's time to get things clearly stated.... You may not like it. but people won't be surprised about that pimple in the level rated class. In a portsmouth race... If you are stock N20... you can register as Intl N20.... or as the Level N20. In SCHRS or Texel ratings.... your level rating would be identical to the OD rating so long as the level rule nailed the measured parameters down.

Remember, the two sail Classic Tornado rig does not have a class any longer.. The T Class changed the rules to three sails along with many other changes. The ratings tables renamed the boat to the Classic Tornado as a service to the sailors and scorekeepers.

Chris A souped up his Nacra 6.0.... He would send me a list of configurations and ratings depending on what he would finally register that day. PIA.... I hope the local N20 fleet lands on the level rated square... makes life easier. CRIS????

Thats being REALLY hopeful

I think Jake has kind of hit the nail on the head for catamarans in general. To get into beach cat racing it cost 20 – 30 grand for a boat that will be outdated almost as fast as the last computer you bought. The cost factor is what keeps our younger generation out of our sport gone are the days when you can buy a new boat for under $5,000, $10,000, $15,000, $20,000, $30,000? ………
One thing that got me about some of the organized races it that they were “brand” specific ok that as good for the manufacture but bad for the owner. Once that type of boat is passé in terms of design or what the manufactures wants to push or further develop leaves the owners hanging in the hands of the company. Class racing when all is equal is fun and a sailor can excel on their skill.
The Portsmouth handicap-based rating system as great although I don’t think anybody will ever agree on the rating that their actual boat receives. I sailed once for a Portsmouth and the game was to just beat, barely, the other manufactures boat in the same size and price range for bragging rights. But besides the business aspect an open class that builders can develop a boat with new ideas, designs, and materials is good for sailing in general.
That is why I see the F16, F18, ect class growing.

I can rattle off a few other one design classed that allow two or three different sail makers into the rule book, why not here?

I am in the process of buying a new job for my 20 and as much as I like the EP I can find myself spend twice of what I spent on a 5.8NA jib a few years back - hence going to another local sail maker.

BTW - has Portsmouth looked at re-rating the Inter 20?

I think we're all hyping equipment over sailor skill so much that we're discouraging participation altogether.

People entering the catsailing arena get sticker shock from the pimped out new boats, and are beat down by folk who say that it's all about this new cordage, that new sail cut, or Ding's "wonder-windex" at the masthead.

New sailors are scared to get out and sail regattas for fear of being killed by the newest "go-fast" item or (worse) pounded into submission by other people screaming obscure rule numbers at them.

I think the reality still is sailor skill and familiarity (local knowledge), as I'm sure we've all seen Randy, Matt (all of them), Robbie and others sail Optis faster than the rest of us sail Tornados. But that's not what sells new boats....

So, let the dealers promote the boats. The classes should promote sailor skill development. Except for the very elite, we're all out there to have fun with this (expensive) hobby and toss friendly smack around

Actually I think the Nacra20 sailors are simply getting tired of having to buy poor quality, high priced equipment to remain "class legal". If EP and Nacra could just make consistently cut sails, I could get behind Tad's desire to keep the Nacra20 fleet SMOD. But I've bought plenty of sails from EP over the years for my Nacra20 and they've all been different. Not just a little different, but wow, is this the right sail different. I've heard the "sails stretch" argument, so your old sail won’t match up with your new sail, but that fails to explain, 2 brand new spinnakers being delivered within days of each other that were drastically different sail cuts. Neither of which matched any of the previously owned spinnakers for the boat. Out of the 5 spins I had for the boat, only 1 was worth a damn, but according to the Nacra20 rules, I wasn't allowed to get them recut, so them I’m left trying to retune the boat for a sub standard sail that I paid out the nose for. Is that really in the spirit of SMOD?
It goes even further though. I ordered a new tramp a few years back and was looking forward to having the new side laced design over the original "only tighten it from the back design". Well low and behold, my boat had 12 anchor points on the rear beam, but the new tramp had different number of attachment points on it causing none of the anchor points to match up? WTF? Really? Thanks Nacra.... Or how about the midpole snuffer hoop, that was designed for the Nacra F18, but is the only legal mid pole option for the Nacra20. Problem is, the hoop is too small for the size of kite. Does it work? Sure, but it sucks buoy racing with it.
I'm all for racing one design, if all the equipment is the same, but the reality of the situation is, none of the sails I got from EP were the same cut, so it's not a fair and level playing field.
Unfortunately it's all too little too late in my eyes. The class is dead, the boats are wearing out, new boats aren’t coming onto the scene, a lot of the top talent has left for the F18s and distance racing doesn’t seem to be as popular as it used to be.

Any new sailor is going to get waxed jumping onto any boat.
Make that a much worse beating trying to jump on a spin rigged performance boat, 16 – 18 – 20 etc.
A lot of the current racers have years and have moved to the newer more complex boats just to keep their interest in the sport, so any new blood has to be willing to go through a pretty long period of “sucking”

What I do agree with Jay, is forums and beach talk get way too caught up with the technical aspects of things and this does hurt the sport. The new guy who is already taking a beating feels they can buy results with “new” gear or some magic rig setting and this just does not happen, so then they fee cheated. Too many feel they can buy results, and that is the discouraging beyond just the learning curve.

The 20 class has always been a manufacturer’s run organization. You buy in and you take what the manufacturer supplies/decides. If you want something different then somebody needs to step up and take over the class and separate it from the builder. Step up or shut up.

Or move on to another class

I think some of you are missing the point.

The N20 is the preferred platform for some sailors and some of those sailors are tired of the discrepancy between the sails on other platforms (F18 for example) and the N20.

Since the catsailing world is more open than it used to be (think hobie or nacra only events), OD racing is shrinking outside of formula classes (big surprise...). It's hard to live with sails that an owner feels are subpar and overpriced.

I'm not disagreeing with "It's not the tools, it's the carpenter", however between boats that might need their ratings adjusted and being hamstringed (to a point) by sails, I see exactly where they are coming from. If the F18's are running a flatter Spi that allows them to reach higher and the N20's are getting hammered on open fleet racing b/c of it, I'd be frustrated too.

I also see the SMOD argument, however when there isn't an OD class, now you're just left playing alone with a fleet of boats with potentially better sail design at their disposal. It doesn't make business sense for Performance to open up sails to the class, nor does it make sense for them to invest money into a rig where they might not recoup it. Not to mention, it cuts support for their dealer network by removing them from the sail buying loop.

If I were to set the rules, I'd lean towards Bob's suggestion. Set a class rule and measurement standard, talk to some lofts and get them to certify that every sail for the class meets X rule. If it comes out of A,B,C lofts and has the stamp that it meets X rule, you're done.

You could meet a couple of goals that make the boat more attractive. Have your sails cut to meet your crew size, a more competitive suit of sails for fleet racing while potentially driving costs down.