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Cowes #235838
08/08/11 10:32 AM
08/08/11 10:32 AM
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Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline OP
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T-Boned

Can't believe that Groupe Edmond believes that they have any rights.


Kris Hathaway
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Cowes [Re: Kris Hathaway] #235839
08/08/11 11:00 AM
08/08/11 11:00 AM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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They must have felt Artemis tacked too close (guessing) and since the boats have difficultly dumping the main Groupe Edmond did everything they could to avoid and couldn't therefore Artemis shoulders the blame and why GE signaled protest. If you choose Suicide port it pays to think a few moves ahead and even then it can just go bad.



David Ingram
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Re: Cowes [Re: David Ingram] #235842
08/08/11 11:21 AM
08/08/11 11:21 AM
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Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline OP
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It was GE that took out Groupama's rudders at this same event last year, causing the crew to abandon ship as she hits the seawall.

2010 Crash


Kris Hathaway
Re: Cowes [Re: David Ingram] #235849
08/08/11 11:51 AM
08/08/11 11:51 AM
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
They must have felt Artemis tacked too close (guessing) and since the boats have difficultly dumping the main Groupe Edmond did everything they could to avoid and couldn't therefore Artemis shoulders the blame and why GE signaled protest. If you choose Suicide port it pays to think a few moves ahead and even then it just goes bad.



After watching it a few times, it looks like Groupe Edmond did actually try to react pretty quickly when it was apparent that Artemis wasn't getting through that tack quickly (looks like they tacked into a header). Boy, those X40s do not maneuver well to leeward when the breeze is up. You can see the leeward rudder stalled on Edmond early in the bareaway (well before the hull was even flying).


Jake Kohl
Re: Cowes [Re: Kris Hathaway] #235855
08/08/11 01:14 PM
08/08/11 01:14 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Well, photographic evidence is suspect, because it is often difficult to judge actual boat placement due to camera angle and foreshortening. Even video can can be misleading.

That said, it looks to me like:
  1. Both boats were sailing on a beat to windward, on port tack. Team Artemis (A) was about 4 boatlengths ahead of and about 2 boatlengths to leeward of Team Groupe Edmond de Rothschild (GE).
  2. Boat A proceeded to tack to starboard.
  3. After A passed head-to-wind, and before she reached a close-hauled course, GE began to bear away.
  4. GE bore away hard, slacking sail and turning, but her rudders stalled and her port bow hit A's port side just ahead of the transom, significantly damaging both boats.
If that is indeed the case, then the rules that apply are:
  • As A started to tack, rules 12 "On the Same Tack, Not Overlapped" and 16.1 "Changing Course" apply. Rule 16.1 requires A to give GE room to keep clear. Rule 12 requires GE to keep clear. Both boats do.
  • When A passes head-to-wind, Rule 12 ceases to apply and rule 13 "While Tacking" does instead. Now A is required to keep clear and GE has right-of-way. Rule 15 "Acquiring Right of Way" does not apply since GE acquired right-of-way because of A's actions. A is required to keep clear of GE. Given that GE took avoiding action at this point, A did not keep clear.
  • I can't tell if A reached a close-hauled course before contact. If not, rules 13 and 14 "Avoiding Contact" apply. If so, then Rules 10 "On Opposite Tacks", 15, and 14 apply. Rule 14(a) states "...a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room...need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear...". It appears to me that GE acted as soon as it was apparent that A was not keeping clear. If A completed her tack before contact, then GE was required keep clear and A was required to give GE room to keep clear. A was also required to avoid contact if reasonably possible.

Based on that, it looks like A broke rules 13 and 14. GE did not break rule 14. If A reached a close-hauled-course, then A also broke rule 15 and GE broke rule 10, but GE is exonerated under rule 64.1(c) "Penalties and Exoneration".

Therefore, it looks entirely reasonable and appropriate that Team Groupe Edmond protested.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Cowes [Re: Isotope235] #235856
08/08/11 01:25 PM
08/08/11 01:25 PM
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Eric, Please give us your rules analysis on this collision :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJpFueH1wvQ&feature=player_embedded

Re: Cowes [Re: Isotope235] #235857
08/08/11 01:35 PM
08/08/11 01:35 PM
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Eric, I just don't see it.

A was clear ahead and tacked to round the mark, GE comes flying in on port and smashes into him.

Looking at the white flash on A's starboard bow just before impact, it appears to me A is on the new tack and making headway for a normal mark rounding.

Last edited by pgp; 08/08/11 01:39 PM.

Pete Pollard
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Re: Cowes [Re: ThunderMuffin] #235858
08/08/11 01:38 PM
08/08/11 01:38 PM
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Observed on video at 18 sec the crew dumped the jib making it even harder to bear off?

Re: Cowes [Re: pgp] #235860
08/08/11 01:46 PM
08/08/11 01:46 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
I just don't see it. A was clear ahead and tacked to round the mark, GE comes flying in on port and smashes into him.

Aremis was clear ahead up until she passed head-to-wind. At that point, she was tacking, and became the give-way boat. See Rule 13.

You can't just tack right in front of another boat, no matter how close to the mark or the layline you happen to be.

It appears to me that Artemis did indeed complete her tack just prior to contact. Since Groupe Edmond had long since taken avoiding action (albeit unsuccessful), A had already broken RRS 13. Completing her tack just means that she broke rule 15 as well.

Last edited by Isotope42; 08/08/11 01:52 PM.
Re: Cowes [Re: Isotope235] #235861
08/08/11 01:49 PM
08/08/11 01:49 PM
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I understand. My contention is that A had completed the tack and was in the process of making the mark rounding and GE had to give way.

At least that's how I see it.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Cowes [Re: pgp] #235862
08/08/11 01:55 PM
08/08/11 01:55 PM
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Either way, I wouldn't want one of my crew mates dicking about waving a flag while I was hanging over the side tethered by my ankle with my head under water!


Paul

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Re: Cowes [Re: pgp] #235863
08/08/11 01:56 PM
08/08/11 01:56 PM
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tampa, fl
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ksurfer2 Offline
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I hate to say it, but I think I agree with Pete on this one. It appears to me that Artemis had completed its tack and was on starboard with their sails drawing. Maybe I am not seeing it right or do not clearly understand how the rules apply here.

Shouldn't GE have anticipated that Artemis would be taking on the layline and prepared for the duck that was coming?


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: Cowes [Re: Isotope235] #235865
08/08/11 01:59 PM
08/08/11 01:59 PM
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tampa, fl
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
It appears to me that Artemis did indeed complete her tack just prior to contact. Since Groupe Edmond had long since taken avoiding action (albeit unsuccessful), A had already broken RRS 13. Completing her tack just means that she broke rule 15 as well.


How long after a boat completes a tack onto starboard do they remain the give way boat?


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: Cowes [Re: pgp] #235867
08/08/11 02:02 PM
08/08/11 02:02 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
My contention is that A had completed the tack ... and GE had to give way.

I guess I don't understand this contention. Aretmis completed her tack less than one second prior to contact. How could Groupe Edmond possibly have kept clear?

Re: Cowes [Re: ksurfer2] #235868
08/08/11 02:04 PM
08/08/11 02:04 PM
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Naples, FL
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You're right, it looks like they need bigger rudders, and don't dump the jib if you're trying to bear away...


Jay

Re: Cowes [Re: Isotope235] #235871
08/08/11 02:12 PM
08/08/11 02:12 PM
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Eric, with your interpretation of the rule, I don't see how you can race cats in anything over 6 knots of wind. Had I been sailing A I'd do the same thing every time.

As you say, GE had 1 second, imo, that is damning evidence. You shouldn't come flying in on port unless you are absolutely certain of yourself. (incidentally, I think GE had about 7 seconds to make a decision, made the correct decision, but his boat couldn't respond, compounding the error in judgement.)


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Cowes [Re: TEAMVMG] #235873
08/08/11 02:18 PM
08/08/11 02:18 PM
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
I wouldn't want one of my crew mates ... waving a flag while I was hanging over the side tethered by my ankle with my head under water!

I had the same thought. Always tend to people in danger first.

RRS 61.1(a) states "A boat intending to protest shall... conspicuously display a red flag at the first reasonable opportunity...". It is reasonable to perform emergency acts of seamanship (such as assisting a person in danger) before flying the flag.

Furthermore, RRS 61.1(c) states "if the incident results in damage or injury that is obvious to the boats involved... the requirements of this rule do not apply...". The damage was obvious, so the protest flag was not necessary.

I also noticed that Groupe Edmond waved a yankee flag (yellow and red striped), rather than a bravo flag (red). Yankee is used in match racing, and I presume that the sailing instructions changed the protest flag for this race.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Cowes [Re: Isotope235] #235876
08/08/11 02:47 PM
08/08/11 02:47 PM
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Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
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Eric, it would seem that the leading boat has no rights while rounding the mark. It's been a long time for me and the rule book but really, the leading boat at a mark rounding needs to leave room to a boat thats clearly behind with no overlap and on port?

I'm not sure I'd want to race with these rules.

One thing is for sure. These boats are tough.


Have Fun
Re: Cowes [Re: ksurfer2] #235877
08/08/11 03:02 PM
08/08/11 03:02 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Rule 13 states:
Originally Posted by RRS 13
After a boat passes head to wind, she shall keep clear of other boats until she is on a close-hauled course. During that time, rules 10, 11, and 12 do not apply...

Judging by the video, I would say that
  1. Artemis begins her tack at 0:12. That's when she starts to head up. At this point, both boats are on port tack and Artemis is clear ahead, so rules 12 and 16 apply. The boats become overlapped almost immediately, and then rules 11 and 16 apply. Both boats are upholding their obligations at this time.
  2. At time 0:14, Artemis passes head-to-wind (you can see her jib flutter). Now rules 11 and 16 cease to apply, and 13 takes over. Rule 14 also comes into play.
  3. At time 0:15, Groupe Edmond starts bearing away. I see her main ease at 0:16 and both sails are dumping air by 0:18 (while continuously bearing down).
  4. Artemis continues to turn until 0:20, so that's when I'd say she reached a close-hauled course. At that instant she is no longer tacking and is now on starboard tack. Rule 13 no longer applies. Rules 10 and 15 do.
  5. At 0:21, the boats collide.

Originally Posted by ksurfer2
It appears to me that Artemis had completed its tack and was on starboard with their sails drawing.
The sails don't have to be drawing. What counts is being on a "close hauled course". That means that the boat is pointing in the direction on which she would sail close-hauled.

Quote
Shouldn't GE have anticipated that Artemis would be taking on the layline and prepared for the duck that was coming?
From a rules perspective, no. A boat does not have to anticipate the actions of another boat. She need only react to what the other boat actually does. See ISAF Case 92.
Originally Posted by ISAF Case 92
When a right-of-way boat changes course, the keep-clear boat is required to act only in response to what the right-of-way boat is doing at the time, not what the right-of-way boat might do subsequently.
From a judgement perspective, one should always try to anticipate what other boats might do. I don't see any evidence that Groupe Edmond failed in that, given that she began her bear-away within a second of Artemis passing head-to-wind. Groupe Edmond was obviously ready to take avoing action and did not delay.

Quote
How long after a boat completes a tack onto starboard do they remain the give way boat?
A boat completes her tack when she reaches a close-hauled course. At that instant, rule 13 ends and rule 10 applies. rule 15 "Acquiring Right of Way" also applies, so a boat that tacked to starboard must initially give a port tack boat room to keep clear.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Last edited by Isotope42; 08/08/11 04:07 PM. Reason: grammar
Re: Cowes [Re: pgp] #235878
08/08/11 03:10 PM
08/08/11 03:10 PM
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
You shouldn't come flying in on port unless you are absolutely certain of yourself.
You have that backwards. You shouldn't tack in front of an oncoming boat unless you can complete your tack and then give him room to keep clear.

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