| Re: 2011 Ronstan A-Cat Worlds
[Re: Lost in Translation]
#236475 08/18/11 07:12 PM 08/18/11 07:12 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | This is Mischa's first A cat regatta ,I believe. Ben Hall, Matt, and Lars are on the untested EVO2. All 3 would be doing way better on their own platforms(Barracuda,evo ht and a3 respectively.Matt has been getting in alot of A seat time, by US standards, but I don't think any Americans are getting in the top quality racing time that the Aussies have. Interview here with Benson, Brewin and Ben Moon. http://2011ronstanacatworlds.sailin...s-catamaran-world-championship-acat2011/ Tomorrow is gonna be close. Competitor's equipment list: http://2011ronstanacatworlds.sailin...s/2011/08/2011_A-cat_Worlds_Data_Inf.pdf
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: 2011 Ronstan A-Cat Worlds
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#236529 08/19/11 12:14 PM 08/19/11 12:14 PM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,253 Columbia South Carolina, USA dave mosley
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Posts: 1,253 Columbia South Carolina, USA | Very interesting mix with not alot of Flyers(Geltech) or Marstroms. Thanks for the linky thingy there Febrile Kitty
The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27
| | | Re: 2011 Ronstan A-Cat Worlds
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#236532 08/19/11 01:39 PM 08/19/11 01:39 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | What happened to Ben!? He was sitting in 4th with two races to go and scores a "did not contend"!?
Jake Kohl | | | Re: 2011 Ronstan A-Cat Worlds
[Re: Jake]
#236533 08/19/11 01:51 PM 08/19/11 01:51 PM |
Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 932 Solomon's Island, MD samc99us
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Posts: 932 Solomon's Island, MD | Looks like you'll need a DNA, Nikita, or Vision to be competitive in this field...guess I better find a second job and/or buy a cheaper platform to get my feet wet.
That DNC is crap as is Anderson's DNF. Mischa looks to have done well today with two 3rd place finishes. Looks like he'll be a force to be reckoned with in this class as well in the future
Scorpion F18
| | | Re: 2011 Ronstan A-Cat Worlds
[Re: Jake]
#236534 08/19/11 01:54 PM 08/19/11 01:54 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | According to the commentary of the final race... he flipped.. wrapped the main sheet around the rudder and had other equip issues. The fleet went back to the beach after the big wind and obviously he was back on the water for the last race in 15 k. Sadly he will have to eat the black flag.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: 2011 Ronstan A-Cat Worlds
[Re: samc99us]
#236536 08/19/11 02:21 PM 08/19/11 02:21 PM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 141 mini
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Posts: 141 | Looks like you'll need a DNA, Nikita, or Vision to be competitive in this field...guess I better find a second job and/or buy a cheaper platform to get my feet wet.
That DNC is crap as is Anderson's DNF. Mischa looks to have done well today with two 3rd place finishes. Looks like he'll be a force to be reckoned with in this class as well in the future Get a life. The only thing you can purchase that will make you "competitve" in this fleet would be an outboard motor. You cannot buy speed. If you think there is some piece of miracle equipment or rig setting that will make you win, you are in for a long time at the back of the fleet. | | | Re: 2011 Ronstan A-Cat Worlds
[Re: mini]
#236538 08/19/11 02:27 PM 08/19/11 02:27 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Looks like you'll need a DNA, Nikita, or Vision to be competitive in this field...guess I better find a second job and/or buy a cheaper platform to get my feet wet.
That DNC is crap as is Anderson's DNF. Mischa looks to have done well today with two 3rd place finishes. Looks like he'll be a force to be reckoned with in this class as well in the future Get a life. The only thing you can purchase that will make you "competitve" in this fleet would be an outboard motor. You cannot buy speed. If you think there is some piece of miracle equipment or rig setting that will make you win, you are in for a long time at the back of the fleet. DNA's and Nikita's littered the results all the way to the last place boats too. They're the greatest, latest boats - of course the top sailors will be sailing them. The boat just hasn't made THAT much of a difference.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: 2011 Ronstan A-Cat Worlds
[Re: Jake]
#236540 08/19/11 03:22 PM 08/19/11 03:22 PM |
Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 932 Solomon's Island, MD samc99us
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Posts: 932 Solomon's Island, MD | I do not think a DNA would make me more competitive than a Flyer etc. right now, given my zero class experience getting up to speed in any platform will be better than no platform. That being said it is very clear that you cannot be in the top anymore on a non-curved board, low stiffness platform.
Where is the Evo II in the lineup? There are some very good sailors on that platform that are very capable of a top 10 finish and were out of the hunt...
Scorpion F18
| | | Re: 2011 Ronstan A-Cat Worlds
[Re: samc99us]
#236541 08/19/11 03:40 PM 08/19/11 03:40 PM |
Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 465 FL sail7seas
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Posts: 465 FL | | | | Re: 2011 Ronstan A-Cat Worlds
[Re: sail7seas]
#236547 08/19/11 05:02 PM 08/19/11 05:02 PM |
Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 170 Brisvegas ACE11
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Posts: 170 Brisvegas | The best platforms here were the Nikita, Scheurer and DNA as has been the case for a while now. However, rig design and time on the water in quality fleets are the two most important factors. The Australian results are no fluke. The best equipment is purchased, the local competition is second to none and many attend world and European events. The US fleet is yet to get the best platforms and the rigs are still old school. A little too flat with not enough grunt in mid range breeze. They'll be better for the exposure to this competition and will be more competitive by Florida.
Last edited by ACE11; 08/19/11 05:03 PM.
| | | Re: 2011 Ronstan A-Cat Worlds
[Re: ACE11]
#236559 08/20/11 08:05 AM 08/20/11 08:05 AM |
Joined: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,226 Atlanta bvining
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Posts: 1,226 Atlanta | The platfroms are not the story and buying a DNA isnt going to make you competitive. The platform was not the reason that Ben, Matt and Lars didnt finish in the top 10, it was the masts. Ben, Matt and Lars all sailed with a untested, new Hall layup that ended up being too soft for and aft. It was finished days before the container went to Europe and once they tested it they all went out looking to buy a fiberfoam mast. Take a look at Lars' sail upwind, no downhaul and the sail is full of wrinkles. All three of these guys were sailing with the same experimental Hall section that wasnt tested.
Ben's been showing up a major events with new layups for a long time, he showed up in FL with a paper thin section, lost his trap line and snapped the mast. The same thing happened here, Ben showed up with a new mast. The proof is that Lars and Matt were counting on the same mast section, and it didnt work.
Ben Moon was using a proven fiberform mast thats why he was fast.
The hull shapes are all pretty close, I think you'll see that the next major race will prove that out and the EVO2 platform will be back in the top 5 again, assuming its got a good mast section tuned to a good sail.
Peter Cogan is a very talented sail designer and hull designer, these results are not a fair representation of his design.
The sail/mast combination is the engine, thats what you should all be talking about. The class is still shaking out the effects from the huge heads on the sails, add that to the new mast stiffness profile, more stiff sideways, soft for and aft. Add these two together and I think its going to be while before all these variables are sorted out and the equipment stops being the story.
If all the sailors had the same mast section then you could start comparing the plaforms, but they dont, so its not a fair comparison.
Matt and Lars are two of the best US sailors and to have them finish so far out of contention is an obvious sign that something was terribly wrong, and what was wrong was the masts. The EVO platform has done well prior, the probability that it effected Lars, Ben and Matt all at the same time is very low. The variable that changed, and was untested, was the new mast.
The US guys have been testing the bend charactoristics on the current mast sections and they are all over the place, even with a small set of manufacturers.
Buying a specific platform isnt going to make you competitive unless you have the right mast and sail.
The story here isnt the platforms, its the masts. | | | Re: 2011 Ronstan A-Cat Worlds
[Re: bvining]
#236563 08/20/11 01:44 PM 08/20/11 01:44 PM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,253 Columbia South Carolina, USA dave mosley
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Posts: 1,253 Columbia South Carolina, USA | Bill, let me see if I have this right...its the mast? Jk I believe you, after a little rig tuning down at Ben's house a few years ago he opened my eyes up to what really goes in to uying a rig(mast and sails) There is no way I can spend enough time and money to get that right to the point I could ever be competitve because of my rig. Guess I will drink beer and watch from the beach for awhile longer and get me a hand-me-down somewhere that is tested and true for someone my size, who sails in my conditions, and maybe then I can get enough "saddle time" in to be back in the game.
The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27
| | | Re: 2011 Ronstan A-Cat Worlds
[Re: dave mosley]
#236568 08/20/11 06:27 PM 08/20/11 06:27 PM |
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn Karl_Brogger
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Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn | It foolish to not buy the best equipment you can if you take it serious. This attitude that there is something wrong with doing so is dumber than hell.
I'm boatless.
| | | Re: 2011 Ronstan A-Cat Worlds
[Re: bvining]
#236599 08/21/11 05:34 PM 08/21/11 05:34 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | The platfroms are not the story and buying a DNA isnt going to make you competitive. The platform was not the reason that Ben, Matt and Lars didnt finish in the top 10, it was the masts. Ben, Matt and Lars all sailed with a untested, new Hall layup that ended up being too soft for and aft. It was finished days before the container went to Europe and once they tested it they all went out looking to buy a fiberfoam mast. Take a look at Lars' sail upwind, no downhaul and the sail is full of wrinkles. All three of these guys were sailing with the same experimental Hall section that wasnt tested.
Ben's been showing up a major events with new layups for a long time, he showed up in FL with a paper thin section, lost his trap line and snapped the mast. The same thing happened here, Ben showed up with a new mast. The proof is that Lars and Matt were counting on the same mast section, and it didnt work.
Ben Moon was using a proven fiberform mast thats why he was fast.
The hull shapes are all pretty close, I think you'll see that the next major race will prove that out and the EVO2 platform will be back in the top 5 again, assuming its got a good mast section tuned to a good sail.
Peter Cogan is a very talented sail designer and hull designer, these results are not a fair representation of his design.
The sail/mast combination is the engine, thats what you should all be talking about. The class is still shaking out the effects from the huge heads on the sails, add that to the new mast stiffness profile, more stiff sideways, soft for and aft. Add these two together and I think its going to be while before all these variables are sorted out and the equipment stops being the story.
If all the sailors had the same mast section then you could start comparing the plaforms, but they dont, so its not a fair comparison.
Matt and Lars are two of the best US sailors and to have them finish so far out of contention is an obvious sign that something was terribly wrong, and what was wrong was the masts. The EVO platform has done well prior, the probability that it effected Lars, Ben and Matt all at the same time is very low. The variable that changed, and was untested, was the new mast.
The US guys have been testing the bend charactoristics on the current mast sections and they are all over the place, even with a small set of manufacturers.
Buying a specific platform isnt going to make you competitive unless you have the right mast and sail.
The story here isnt the platforms, its the masts. Bill, You seem to have some good info on there platforms and rigs. What are the differences between the Evo HT and the Evo II? How about comparisons between the Evo II and the barracuda?
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: 2011 Ronstan A-Cat Worlds
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#236602 08/21/11 08:50 PM 08/21/11 08:50 PM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,253 Columbia South Carolina, USA dave mosley
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Posts: 1,253 Columbia South Carolina, USA | Karl, Im going to ignore that you said I was dumber than hell and help you understand what I did say. I dont think you really comprehend what it takes in time, testing, money, and knowledge to go buy a "rig", or mast and sail for your body type, sailing style, and normal conditions you sail in. When I was at Ben Halls house and he talked about these very small nuances in picking the rig, plus the time it would take to make that selection, the number of rigs you would actually have to test drive, well, then that is way more time and money than I have, or will probably ever have. It looks like you have a Viper, a pretty sweet boat, but its no A cat, and the mast and possibly sails came as a unit with the boat. Im just saying theres alot more to it in the A Cat class. My thought is to find a bost and mast that is already proven for a sailor of my size and then I can select a sail(by trial and error) to make the best rig/boat that I can get. Only a pro can do what needs to be done, the rest of us will have to do something similar to what I suggest that I will do.
The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27
| | | Re: 2011 Ronstan A-Cat Worlds
[Re: dave mosley]
#236603 08/21/11 10:12 PM 08/21/11 10:12 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | So Dave is the wifey gonna let you get a boat and actually sail with us again? Say it ain't so. p.s. I think Karl got you figured out over the intarweb. Karl, Im going to ignore that you said I was dumber than hell and help you understand what I did say. I dont think you really comprehend what it takes in time, testing, money, and knowledge to go buy a "rig", or mast and sail for your body type, sailing style, and normal conditions you sail in. When I was at Ben Halls house and he talked about these very small nuances in picking the rig, plus the time it would take to make that selection, the number of rigs you would actually have to test drive, well, then that is way more time and money than I have, or will probably ever have. It looks like you have a Viper, a pretty sweet boat, but its no A cat, and the mast and possibly sails came as a unit with the boat. Im just saying theres alot more to it in the A Cat class. My thought is to find a bost and mast that is already proven for a sailor of my size and then I can select a sail(by trial and error) to make the best rig/boat that I can get. Only a pro can do what needs to be done, the rest of us will have to do something similar to what I suggest that I will do.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: 2011 Ronstan A-Cat Worlds
[Re: Lockenfisch]
#236609 08/22/11 06:50 AM 08/22/11 06:50 AM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,253 Columbia South Carolina, USA dave mosley
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Posts: 1,253 Columbia South Carolina, USA | Todd, close , very close... Im hoping to sail on cary's boat a little this fall, it will be a start.
The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27
| | | Re: 2011 Ronstan A-Cat Worlds
[Re: dave mosley]
#236618 08/22/11 08:17 AM 08/22/11 08:17 AM |
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn Karl_Brogger
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Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn | Karl, Im going to ignore that you said I was dumber than hell and help you understand what I did say. 1. The comment wasn't directed specifically at you, more of a generalization. 2. I didn't call anyone dumber than hell, I said the attitude is dumber than hell. 3. Just because I've got a plowing sail for dragging the boat downwind doesn't mean I don't understand how important sail and mast combinations are for the A Class. While I haven't ventured too far into having sails cut, I do use two different mains dependent on what configuration I'm sailing. I just hate when people disguise their jealousy of someone else's spending habits as an excuse for trying to buy spots. The reality is that, that person is just doing everything in his power to get it down to just him.
I'm boatless.
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