Being a hardcore dutch beach sailer and reading about the new F16 from nacra, I wonder if these narrow, pointy hull bows work at sea.

When I was shaping the hulls of my beachcat for max. comfort, it looked like the impossible combination of sharp (for speed), but volumineus (anti diving) and enough rocker (for riding the waves) and this magic distribution of the volume over its length.

See how it worked out in my case:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26hEvyegflU

anything from Nacra is gonna work in the North Sea, the design team all live there

uh, except maybe Pete Melvin who actually did the design?

I didn't know that the design team from Nacra lived at the north sea. Ofcourse I have heard from Peter Vink, but Morrelli/Melvin is located in USA as far as I know.

With regard to Holland at the north sea, I should explain that our coastline is maybe not more then about 300 km. You cannot just go with your trailer to the beach and sail away.

All the entrances to the beach are normally locked for motorized traffic;. So you have to be a member of a coastal sailing-society and leave your cat the whole season on the beach.
In wintertime the beach has to be cleared by lawregulations.

There are 14 of such coastal sailing-societies with about average of 30 to 40 cats. So totally about 600-700 cats on the beach.
From that total at least half of the members only sails with eastern landwind, so flat sea, no waves and breakage.

Leaves about max. 300 dutch catsailors who want to sail in waves and pass the break. This is ofcourse a too small market for a profitable special catdesign.

Hence my disappointment 6 years ago when I was looking for a beachcat to buy after atleast 20 years of leaving the cat-scene.

I wonder how these figures are in the States and in what way the sea(ocean) for the the American Coast differs from the NorthSea coast.

My luck is that I am one of the exceptions with personal admittance to the beach. So I drive my tractor from home with cat to and from the beach. But the downside is that my sailing spot is exceptional for the dutch coast. It is near the (only) 5 km dike which interrups the dunes. The seastate can be very mean here. On top of that there are these awkward little cross-piers on the beach, which make the launching very difficult.

Catamaran paradise doesn't exist, but my love and drive for the sea concurs.

ronald reeder

Ronald,

Most any of the latest and greatest boats will handle these conditions fine, including most of the F16's (Viper and Nacra F16 are likely good choices), F18's (C2, Infusion, Wildcat, Cirrus R is probably fine as well), and the Nacra F20c. Nacra sails all their designs in the North Sea for testing as mentioned above.

Frankly any boat designed in the last 10 years is going to work fine for you, you just need to learn how to sail it in your waters; all will be better than anything you sailed 20 years ago. In short, steep chop, there is no substitute for waterline, so get the biggest boat you can afford and are comfortable finding crew for.

The Atlantic ocean can be nasty depending on where you are (Hatteras is no picnic). My primary launch location (Chesapeake Bay, not open ocean) can also be nasty, the waves break right on the beach, and in the right wind and current the launching is tougher than anything I saw in Tybee (not as tough as the northern launch points of the Worrell). We also see short, steep chop off my beach and my TheMightyHobie18 handles it fine, my N20 didn't even care. The latest F16's, F18's and F20's are going to do better than either of these boats in these conditions.

Sam,

I looked up the sailingplaces in Google earth, but I have to see video of the seas over there in order to get a real impression.

You are right in proposing the newest designs from F16 etc. But my problem is that I´m always single/handed.

That limits the mast height for possible uprightening in worst conditions. It makes daggerboards on a beach start and landing almost impossible and because of these cross-piers on my spot with only 70 meter in between, I simply don´t have the handling time. Finally the same applies for the ruddersytem; letting the lee rudder down from the high luv side?

But in fact I can only really judge about these matters once I have tried one.

ronald

In zandvoort varen we al sinds 2004 met F16's en daar liggen ze dus ook 6 maanden van het jaar in de haven op het strand. De boten houden het prima uit tot ju toe.

Wouter

I don't really agree with you on the landing and the jetties (golfbreakers) , just requires a slightly different technique that is by itself not difficult to learn or execute. Personally, I don't know anybody who leaves or lands on the beach with their lee rudders locks. Sailing with a luff rudder only and a bit of daggerboard has been standard surfsailing technique for many years now.

"a bit of daagerboard" means setting about 15-20 cm daggerboard and take most of the weatherhelmout of boat unloading your single luff rudder while traversing the surf zone. This is shallow enough to get into the NO surf zone before the daggers hit the ground and even if they do then the protrusion is so little thqt both daggerboard and hull cn take the impact. But in 99% of cases your liftthe last bit out just before your step of the boat in knee deep water ( in bijvoorbeeld de mui)

Wouter

Hello Wouter,

Thanks for your comments.

Twenty years ago I sailed about 10 years at Bergen aan Zee which lookes a bit like Zandvoort. And with no jetties!

So, the story which you tell me about launching and landing in that type of enviroment sounds familiar. I even remember me that I could most of the time let my rudders fully down in the swimming poole right before the beach. And I didn't hit the banks following. So no weatherhelm and in fact a peace of cake.

But the spot where I'm sailing now is quite different.There are these awkward jetties too close to each other and a current in upcoming tide which is very strong. So time-window and distance-window are now the leading bottleneck.
With wind cross-onshore, for instance WSW, I start in one corner of the jettie-section and I have to be outside this section before I hit the next jettie. Meanwhile I have to pass the first breaks which can put me in a moment just 10 meters back to the beach each time a wave hits me cross on the side.

Remember that I don't have enough speed yet at that moment because the mainsail is not fully closed. Because of the weather helm with the rudders horizontal. Frontsail is ofcourse fully on.
This enormous weatherhelm on my cat is in fact my main handicap. I'm sure it has to do with my hull design, but I don't see the solution.

By the way I saw in your CV that you are a recumbent cyclist too. I was fifteen years ago one of the first with an aluminium homemade double suspended low-rider. So high-five.

Petten is not so far sailing from Zandvoort.

greetings ronald reeder

Klinkt als hoek van holland en omstreken. Wederom antwoord ik dat het een kwestie van techniek is.

Ik heb wel een paar keer de westland cup gedaan en vrijwel altijd met een peut wind en stroming. Desondanks heb ik die strekdammen nog nooit geraakt. Kwestie van techniek en ook weten wanneer je beter aan de kant kan blijven. Die kleine foto bovenin bij mijn berichtje is toevallig ook genomen bij een van de westland cups uit het verleden precies op het moment dat ik met mijn F16 de eerste breker pak bij het uitvaren.

Kortom, noordzee zeilen met een F16 ? Been there , done that en het gaat prima als je je techniek hier en daar aanpast.

Veel succes,

Wouter

First, I have to apologize for my fellow countryman for switching to dutch in his reply.
That is ofcourse not the intention of an international open forum.

Second, Wouter, you are stating that it's only a question of technique. That is ofcourse a general clincher. I won't dispute your technique nor as I assume that you under estimate mine.

Maybe I stepped on some toes in the dutch catscene, but on my age I really don't care.

I only want(ed) to discuss the possible limitations and design-questions of the newest cats withy regard to use on the Northsea shore.

"but on my age I really don't care."

+1

I sail F18s on the northsea all the time and never have any problem with the surf.
The only time it becomes a problem is with light straight onshore winds and relatively big surf (0.5m), but that is not something that design can solve (unless you fit a motor!).
When its windy the cats with a lot of volume up front can be pushed harder but that isn't specific to the northsea.

I agree that it is a question of technique, but timing is also important.

I have a cro-mo short wheelbase recumbent with over seat steering. Pretty uncommon bike for Norway

I do try to not step on toes though as it usually is very unproductive. Same for riding over somebodys toes figuratively speaking.

I like the Google translation version of Wouter's response:

Physical therapist? And of course, I try not to touch groins (other than my own) if at all possible.

(Yes, I know that groin=jetty in this context.)

Hi Rolf,

Over-seat-steering sounds familiar; so high five to you.

By the way my mentioning of the recumbent was in fact just trying to break the ice (which didn't quite succeed).

Sailing so many hours so many years singlehanded at sea has made me a bit too open-harted and abrupt, I think.

I'm a 2-wheeler over-seat steering recumbent rider myself. However i'm no cro-mo guy, but straddle aluminium of the 7000 series.

Sadly I had to shell out a bundle for a new bike a few months ago as my beloved red dingo got nicked in delft.

Now riding a white and black orca. Somehow this is more fitting for a salor I guess.

Have your boats seen water yet Rolf ? I've been away for a while and would hate to have missed that bit of news !

North-sea sailor, thanks for appologizing. I do a bit of singlehanding myself but I guess it changed my character in an opposite direction then yourself. If it at all !

And look out for those groins everyone, you don't want any daggerboard collisions with them ! Ohhhh.

It has been a while since we had some online translator fun on this forum.

Wouter

Wouter

Sam,

sorry to say, but you don't have a clue from what conditions he is talking. Indeed a Wildcat is less suited than a Tiger, because of the flat wide hulls, the high aspect ratio daggerboards which requires for the same area (grip,) more draught. As flat hulls and high aspect ratio boards are quite common nowadays I fully understand the point. I am not saying it is imposible to go with those "modern boats" through the surf at flat beaches, but it is more difficult, or in other words with "old style" boats, you can out in stronger on shore conditions.

Ronald,

Nothing special to do with volume distribution though. I find that the "wave piercing" hulls handles better waves as long as you keep the weight balanced (and does not overload the boat). They are not piercing, just do less rock.
Maybe sombody gives you a ride with a F16 so you can get a better impression than just reading mails.

Cheers,

Klaus

I think one of Ronalds problems is just the place where he sails with breakwaters placed very closely together.
When sailing alone I'm guessing a design without boards might be the easiest to get thru the surf.


As far as I know that is the only place along the coast that has that problem, in places like Hoek van Holland the breakwaters have been submerged and replaced by the Sand-Engine (expensive coastal infrastructural project, for the geeks among us).

Klaus: Dont you sail on a lake somewhere?

Nice try
It's the baltic sea, which some consider as a lake. Sometimes enough surf for me with my Javelin. Actually I didn't notice that we have surf at all until I got that boat.
I have to cross three banks with 100m, sometimes not deeper than 5 to 10cm.

So I must smile if I read that some people say that all modern boats go well thru the surf (like F18HT at the Worrell?)

Cheers,

Klaus