Anyone who spends any amount of time here knows that Mark and I usually disagree on most things. Typically, only Wouter can wind me up more.

However, this is one of the best points that anyone has made, ever.

We all know that literally every decision point involving format and qualification of the event has pros and cons, some of which people will lose their minds over. Realistically, there is no magical combination that will make everyone happy.

BUT, if Mark’s above concept is truly taken to heart by US Sailing and all of the classes and sailors, the rest would be easier for anyone to swallow.

Mike

It's unusual for you to miss a point so badly. The H16 is by no means a dead boat! It's one of the most aggressively raced platforms on the planet and for you to use it as an example to discredit my opinion reflects poorly on you.

To answer your question would I race a H16 at the Alter Cup? If I qualified for the championship you better believe it! I'd also do it on a Wave, Sunfish, Laser or whatever else could be sailed straight up... you know since you're asking

IMO a dead boat is any class that can no longer field a National Championship. If you believe the top talent is still hanging around in a class that can't support a national championship anymore you're simply living in denial.

You make a point that non US countries are all about sailing handicap... without spending any time there it's impossible for me to speak to that point. My impression of the Tai regatta was it was more about the equipment that was there and not about the sailors that competed, based on the posts on this forum. This point is true for every handicap regatta, it always seems to be about the equipment first and the actual accomplishments of the sailors gets lost. I'm not interested in an equipment show.

Mike, sounds like you and Mark have made up your minds.

I view T-winds as sort of a family reunion - a dysfunctional, alcoholic, pathalogically lying, Tourette's syndrome kind of family reunion... on boats

I should not have personalized the argument... my apology.

The point I wanted to make is that the SNOB factor comes into play when you try to fill out the fleet for the US sailing championships....Fact is... many of the top sailors (previous USSA championship racers) did not enter the championships when the Hobie 16 was used. I heard a lot of complaints to this effect.

When participation is skewed one way or the other... (no doubt by choice of many of the individual sailors (not you)) the championship is diminished.

Yes, I've made up my mind: Nothing is off the table, and that goes in all directions.

We need to hear all the opinions so we can decide on the best path forward.

Just like in Race Management, there are always three basic options when faced with a challenge: Do Nothing, Abandon the Race, or something in between.

My contribution to the future of the event is to get the opinions through this survey, which we will then use to recommend where to go next: No change, complete rework (I don't subscribe to eliminating the event), or something in between.

Mike

ROFLMAO! Luv it!

Gentlemen,

Let me just play "Devil's Advocate" here ...

You don't like "Handicap racing"??? ....

Well since the Hobie 18 is the best Racing/Beach Cat EVER designed, built and raced competitively ... ALL future "Multihull Championships" should be held using TheMightyHobie18's ... (IMHO)

... that doesn't work for you??? You happen to like a different manufacture's boat? I happen to like my boats ... and currently don't have the funds to purchase the newest/latest/shinest multihull that was just introduced ... soooooo .... you can sell what you have and purchase a boat like mine, and then we can race One-Design ....

(A good word to look up in the Webster's Dictionary at this point would be .... Ethnocentricity ...)



Mike L and Marc S are trying to make "some progress" in addressing the always changing and future parameters of our sport .... and I have and will support their efforts ...


Note: I have driven 6hrs (one-way) to a One-Design Regatta only to have no other TheMightyHobie18's show up for that event ... and was sent home ....

I'll race "handicap" ... it sure beats being sent home ... or ... staying at home and mowing the lawn for something to break the boredom ....

Harry

For the record, I'm the one who injected the H16 in the discussion. It appears that was a mistake. My apologies.

Still, I've never been in upstate NY and would welcome an excuse to go up there.

I did not say ALL of the EU... I pointed to TWO huge regattas that have huge support year after year. This is not a false choice between one design and handicap. The rest of the world's sailors take a mature open minded view of handicap racing..... they don't believe it's an equipment show as you assert that all handicap regattas are. They are happy to compete at Carnac around the cans for the championship of a handicap class.

So my point is that a focused handicap regatta (eg. single handed championship) for the US Sailing championship is a reasonable option. It is just as valid as our previous system where the Alter cup is equivalent to the Olympics as the NA's are equivalent to the worlds.

How well each one serves the goal is a whole other matter.

PS.... of course I have opinions and I try to persuade you that I am right.... Last I looked... nobody made me king.. and the most I have to do with the survey is contribute what questions I thought should be asked.

Yes the Hobie 16 reaction was disappointing but I'm of the opinion that a true champion can make any platform work. Having the event on a H16 does NOT diminish the championship in any way IMO. I look at someone like Greg Thomas that wouldn't shy away from doing the Alter Cup on a H16 or a spin boat and as far as I'm concerned that is the mark of a true champion. You really can't let the "SNOB's" as you put it dictate the platform chosen. You simply have to say "Dude if you're scared just say you're scared".

Harry we aren't talking about a weekend regatta for weekend warriors, we are talking about an US Championship (which btw is open it international teams) So yes, it's held to a different standard.

Alright, let's get down to it. It's this or nothing isn't it? If that's the case go for it but please don't try to tell us it's "just as good or better" than the old format because it simply isn't.

In my opinion there is LOT and I mean LOT US Sailing could to to make the current format viable but they are too focused on other things.

Has US Sailing made any concessions on the $50 a head (skipper and crew) user fee they charge the championship? Is there any wiggle room with trying to interest sponsors outside the US Sailing sponsorship agreement? These two items alone could go a very long way in making the event more doable. Instead they suggest a BYOB DPN regatta, come on guys, really?

Well said.


So... What is the purpose of the Multihull championships and how does it serve the entire racing community.

So... I don't understand why a championship that requires geographic diversity... eg one boat from each Area.... makes sense for the USA.

For instance, Say my buddy does the F18 NA's... with 70 boats and finish in the top 10. I could understand why he would like another bite at the apple of glory in a 20 boat regatta... But why would he be interested in a regatta with an F18 sailor from CA, FL and MI etc? ... What he really wants is a second regatta with the top 20 sailors from the F18 NA's and the geographic requirement distorts the competition.

I race A cats and I do not gives a damn about either of these regattas. I certainly would not declare the second regatta winner as the best multihull sailor of the year in the states.....

The real puzzle though is I don't understand why we need two championships to sort out the top F18 champion of 2012 but that is me.

In my view... we need a championship that gets all of the double handed spin sailors competing on boats they optimized for their weight and style. Then rotate the game the next year.... If Johnny and Charlie emerge from retirement and want to show you how it's done on the big T.... great fun... don't show up... well... as you would day "Dude if you're scared just say you're scared".

On these two points, you and I completely agree.


Yes, and despite what some people don’t want to let go of, additional sponsor logos will be allowed on the boats. However, even if we had enough money to put 20 new boats on the line, as you can see from the survey questions; the size of the event is also being challenged (is a 20-boat event relevant, etc.). I wasn't kidding when I said nothing is off the table.


Be careful what you assume. That suggestion actually came from a group of cat sailors, not anyone on the US Sailing staff.

Mike

Mark, I'm not sure why I went down this road with you, slow day at work I guess. Anyway I've already identified the major issue, if those in position don't want to address the real problem that's fine, let's do the BYOB DPN regatta so US Sailing can get their $50 a head.

Oh Mike... you worry me sometimes. Liz Walker has been beating the BYOB DPN drum from the very first day I was involved in the US Multihull Championship! So US Sailing owns that one.

Are you saying that if Gill is included in the US Sailing sponsorship agreement Zhik can also be a sponsor outside of the agreement? This is where you need to focus, work the money Mike that's what makes events happen.

Ding, you're entitled to believe whatever you want, but the survey was primarily composed of questions based on conversations that I've been having with people since October. The first time I recall hearing the BYOB DPN concept came from someone other than Liz, and that person was a cat sailor.

Gill vs. Zhik. Really? If you had lined up Volvo to be the title sponsor, do you really think they'd be OK with Toyota as a co-sponsor?

Don't try to make this something it isn't. Additional sponors are welcome, but cannot conflict with the primary sponsors. This is not unique to US Sailing or this event.

EDIT: You have dealt with sponsors for other events, right? Then you know that some agreements allow for conflicts, others do not.

This one does not allow for the conflicts. But to say that additional sponsors are not allowed is completely inaccurate. We simply need to target companies in different markets.

Mike

Dave... what you see as the big problems are truly nuts and bolts.

In Area C... Nobody gives a damn about the US Sailing Championship.

So, Depending on your point of view... this is a problem... this is not a problem or that US Sailing championships are not an issue so long as we don't spend any money on it.... therefore, have at it boys.

My position is... I don't want to get a YC to run a regatta that nobody cares to participate in.... we tried that last year.... Nobody wants to play. I have tried all variations on this qualifier theme. So... don't have Area reps attempt to run qualifiers!. change the rules. 6 out of 10 regions blew this qualifier off last year.. Change the rules!

My second position is... unless you can persuade the Area C sailors that the current format of the US Sailing championships serves a larger agenda... don't spend any money on it on their behalf.

As always... somebody has to come back from one of these events and say why it was a can't miss... must do event. We don't get that from the racers that do compete in the championship.

When I have to respond to three emails this AM asking... what the hell is this survey all about.... YOU have a problem well beyond how to finance the gig.

No matter how fantastic a job you do in running the championship event... it's relevance is cratering... This was clear prior to your issues with the system.

RE a BYOB PN event....I have heard that rumor...IMO, without a consensus on a long term championship plan... I would argue that USSA should stop that in it's tracks.. Perhaps I could support that event because some areas did have qualifiers in 2011. If those 4 sailors want to compete... I would try to make good on the commitment.

I've been told to cool it, so I'm out. But, I just couldn't resist quoting that bit of your post before leaving, it speaks to me.