It's not about me, it's the MHC that has to vote to approve.

At the autumn meeting, we were told that it was an unfinished version, so no vote was taken.

Obviously, all of our attention over the winter has been on the Alter Cup, so I can understand why this slipped.

Mike

Just so that everyone knows what this is all about..... This document is only about safety gear and equipment and has to go Safety at Sea and for that group to consider it and publish this in the Safety guidelines.

We are looking for that good housekeeping seal of approval on equipment so that YC and other OA's can defer to a group of "experts" for the NOR.

We have gotten the right expert opinion to write it... So we should be able to move the ball.

The next step is for the MHC committee to consider forming a committee of PRO's and OA's that run the distance races and evaluate guidelines for these events.

When the sailing community is evaluating what happened in 6 deaths. IMO, you need to take a fresh look at your own niche of the sport... Before the crisis.

I suspect these guidelines for PROs and OAs would be published by the MHC and not look for sanction by any other US Sailing committee.

The committee could also consider the issues and make no recommendations. The strength of the report rests on the experience and judgment of those people on the committee.

Now I starting to agree with Karl from the other thread. If your boat is rated to handle the wind and wave conditions -- and forecasts -- and you are geared up for the conditions, then no problem. Accidents may still happen.

I know from the Hobie forum Karl is good with rigging and gear. Sailing in conditions that were to the limit of his boat might get extreme, but the gear and rigging is there to rely on. But if someone is not rigged up or geared up for the conditions, then that's more the problem. Not sure what you are asking here, on this forum?

Well, the document, as written, basically reinforces JJ's point. It lists some gear and equipement that would be good to have aboard, and reiterates that the sailors are ultimately responsible for putting themselves in harms way, but basically says nothing about the OA role.

My understanding is that this committee (and charter to write this document) came about specifically at the request of yacht clubs that were being asked to potentially host cat/tri regattas for the first time.

I don't see a whole lot in this draft that would help such a club decide what their responsibilites are (in terms of wind/wave guidelines, being rescue-capable, etc.).

Mike

Since my spring cold is keeping me out of the boatyard, I'll carry on with this discussion.

As a race officer, trained by many talented ROs, I will run the race (under common sense) until the Chief Judge or USCG shuts it down. We have a club on our bay that is famous for cancelling a race on the day before, only to have great weather on race day. They also have displayed the propensity to grab high entry fees and remain at the bar if the weather is 'uncomfortable' for them. Their credibility and attendance is suffering.

There will probably never be an ISAF check off list for ROs to apply in threatening or angry weather, so do not look for a guide; use common sense and trust the talent of your Race Comm and your racing sailors. Be prepared with adequate safety boats with jumpers when hosting cats or the modern sporties w/out auxiliary power.

If there is an ISAF 'safety guide for race management' I have never seen it, but I love enlightenment.

The problem isn't with those of us who know these boats and sailors (and know what we're doing), it's for the clubs and ROs that are new to cats. You'd be amazed how many very senior ROs have never run a cat regatta before.

This isn't about substituting for common sense, it's helping them to help us where appropriate.

Mike

I have been hoping for an opportunity to do some training. Maybe this is a niche the MHC could work into via proper channels. Let me get with Tim Rumptz (Our Area RO) and see if there is a trail. I brought this up at the Miami OCR last year.

We are putting together a day long workshop in our area with focus on scoring software, rules, and best management practices (OTW style). I'll hand off our curriculumn to you when we complete the doc.

The current USSA training seminars in the GYA have turned into 'certification factories' w/out proper on the water training.

A scary moment is in 15+knts, when your dear friend has been blown over on a F16 SH, and one (MSO) is SH on a 16 ft center console. I got him back on the boat and help right it. There are not that many non - cat sailors who would know what to do.

Ask Randy about the USCG sometime when you meet him:) Boats are expendable to those guys.

Why don't you guys work up ideas for skills and practices we might include? I'll get with Steve Green and see what the pros out west are doing. ML - contact Mark Hansen. Maybe we could build a package for a NA training tour USSA would sign off on, but I am sure before we could take action, the bureacracy would claim its share of time, money, and control.

Food for thought...I vowed after that event I will never SH mark set ops again uless we are sailing off the sandbar near PYC with optis:).

Some good thoughts here, Bert. Some quick comments:

It is well known that US Sailing does a great job at standardizing RO training, but falls flat when it comes to mark boat and safety boat training. The thought process has always been that the ROs would train their mark boat operators, but it has become fairly obvious that this lacks standardization that could benefit everyone.

We are working on that as we speak, through the Race Management office. There is a model program in development in Newport, and it includes on-water operations.

This is intended to be a good thing, and is coming from the bottom up, so the conspiracy theorists need to give it a rest.

I only have one polite word for a single-handed mark boat: Useless. I have plenty of other words that I won't post here...

USCG is not there for your boat. Ask me how I know...

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All: The safety committee report is now in the hands of the Area Reps, and the comment period is open.

Contact your Area Rep to get a copy and/or provide feedback, we would like to be able to approve this on May 30.

One option would be to approve this document now, and take some additional time to handle the OA recommendations as a separate document, under a new Ad Hoc committee.

Mike

So that would make sense, then, that a top-tier event might proceed in conditions that a local regatta would not (i.e. wind/sea conditions). It could be argued that top sailors and their equipment can handle conditions that might cause a lot of accidents in a fleet of average or new sailors with boats which aren't in top shape.

Of course, the rudimentary "no-go" conditions:

- small craft advisory in effect (22-33 kts sustained / 6-7 Beaufort)
- lightning
- surf in excess of 1.5 meters
- any tornado/hurricane/microburst warning
- any race that my brother is sailing

Exactly.

The main value of guidelines and a compilation of best practices is for the OA, PRO and the racers to take a careful look at the collective wisdom in preparation of the race day.

at that point.... to use JJs words...


There are three pieces to this situation

Ignorance
Stupidity
Accidents

IMO, we can do something about Ignorance.

Our local club has a race every year the Frenchy’s Rum Run… This goes out to Anacapa Island and back.. This is an easy race that is good “tune up” for the Island Series that starts a few weeks later. It is usably pretty benign weather wise and can be a screaming beam reach on the way back when the wind starts to rip up little in the afternoon.

A few years back we had a freak weather system come through the evening before the race with the weather station at the destination mark showing 40 plus mile winds… This is one of the tools we use to determine the winds:

http://www.sccoos.org/data/coamps/analyses/searange/analysis.html

We (Race Committee) decided to alter the race course to stay close to shore even with the weather reporting the winds to calm down later in the day…. It may have not been the best decision, but it was the prudent one as the safety of the racers came first. Sometimes you have to make the smart call no matter how much this is going to piss some people off.. In this case it turned out 99% the participants were very happy with the alternate course. We had some great wind for all points of sail, and a good time was had by all.

Needless to say, there was one participant that was very vocal of his displeasure on our decision to which we offered them a refund on the entry fee. Funny thing about this is to this day that one sailor that was not happy with our decision has noted this other forums as his worse day of sailing and it was our fault.

Personally, I have never had a bad day of sailing!!! Guess some folks need to stop listing to the voice in their head!

Excellent OA report!!

Did you consider having the sailors vote on the change?

No we didn't... Our race committee has some very experienced sailors for these waters with one of them being licensed captain for some BIG boats. When they note that is pretty gnarly to the point to where they would stay on shore and sit this one out you need to take that advice to heart..

In hindsight that may have been a good way to go, having the sailors vote on it. But, as my dad use to say, "he is too stupid to know any better" and I don't know what the experience levels is on the group as a whole. Therefore the advice from whose experience levels we know is going to hold more weight on the decision..

+1

Individuals are smart... crowds are stupid

Keep the ideas coming, I'm off to Madcatter.

Better yet, grab a Wave and head up there and talk to me about all of this in person!

Mike

I have seen a Coomodore take over during an FT 10 M championship and really turned the event into a real mess. He held voting at the skippers' meeting and then on the water.

By the time all was said and done the fleet raced sans spins in the 15 knt zone then went with spins for the race with new pressure at 20 knts. OOPs...Stick with the NoR and SIs. Let the sailors follow the rules.

This was truly a very unprofessional manner of "Yacht Clubing" the fleet of sailors from states away.

The fleet captain became incapacitated and rendered the mark boat he was on useless. I had to manage the course with my crew on my Proline 20. They stayed anchored behind the starting area for both races until we towed them in. The FC spent the day throwing up in front of the lovely ladies he had on his boat:)

He learned some lessons that day, but I am afraid the Commodore felt proud of getting off only two races in great sailing conditions.

letting the fleet vote is not a good idea in that circumstance. If the class is concerned about the limits, let the class specify the limits to be specified in the event documents so they are known by all - there will be MUCH less complaining that way because everyone knew what to expect coming in. Otherwise, the PRO needs to be prepared to shoulder the decision.

I think the A class uses 22 mph, and I hear their sailors refer to it often.

If you're going to try to apply a standard, there is one that is actually in use.

Don't see them communicated much. Maybe I don't look closely enough... Unless "cancel conditions" for my boat are clearly stated, it's hard to know if it's worth it to go. 22 mph sounds good. The point, however, is that you don't say you're going to do something and then pull the plug for a reason that is not communicated IN ADVANCE.

Having a second person on the chase boat is good. Having a second person who is cat sailor is better. This person will know where the chase boat needs to be possitioned to assist in righting or be able to go in the water to assist in righting the boat. I have had circumstances where that person was needed to sail the boat back to shore because the crew and skipper became incapacitated.
Safetly gear on the chase boat(besides tow lines, flags, multiple radios, fenders) should always include vest,gloves and possibly a harness(helps when righting boats).