By carry on straight ahead do you mean he luffed up to a close hauled course but continued to sit on your air, or he rounded the mark then continued to sail below a close hauled course? These are two different scenarios. In trying to answer your question we need several definitions and a couple rules:

Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her
proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include
room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room.

Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in
the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat
has no proper course before her starting signal.

Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.

11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat
shall keep clear of a leeward boat.

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull
lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above
her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped
within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails
astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap
begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.


From your description it sounds like there was an overlap when the first boat entered the zone. The outside boat was therefore required to give the inside boat room to sail to the mark, and her proper course while at the mark. It sounds like you gave the boat room to sail to the mark. Proper course is defined as A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term.. Therefore, I believe the proper course of the inside boat is to round the mark, and promptly luff to a close hauled course, as this is the course she would sail in the absence of other boats. I also believe this allows the inside boat to make a tactical rounding, as that would be the course they would sail in the absence of other boats, and thus their proper course.

The term at the mark is slightly ambiguous, but I generally take it to mean when the hull is overlapped with the mark, and luffing up would create contact with the mark. It is un-seamanlike to luff a boat into a mark.

So, to answer your question, if the boat did not luff up to a close hauled after rounding the mark, I believe they would not be sailing their proper course (assuming the next mark is to windward), and would then be violating rule 11 as a windward boat.

Now, after you have left the mark, rules 11 and 17 govern the situation, and how the overlapped was established is important. The windward boat must always keep clear under rule 11, but rule 17 places restrictions on the actions of the leeward boat. If the overlapped was established from clear astern (likely as you said you were the faster boat) then a rule 17 overlap exists. In that case the leeward boat cannot sail above their proper course. The fact that it is the leeward boat's proper course is important here.

So, if after rounding the mark, and while the boats were overlapped, the windward boat failed to keep clear, causing the leeward boat to sail below their proper course, the windward boat is in the wrong.

Does that make sense?

One more thing to add, if the inside boat entered the zone on the opposite tack and then gybed, the overlap would be considered instantaneous. In that case, rule 17 would not apply after rounding the mark and the leeward boat could luff windward to head to wind.

A really good way to experience all of these scenarios is to go team race!

An even better way to go learn these rules is to judge team racing, or at least fly the flags on a judge boat. Really really high level team racing requires all boats to have 110% certainty on the rules and the skippers will be calling overlaps in real time.

This thread has been valuable I think to all involved, and at least for me will prove beneficial this weekend while racing in a 40 boat fleet with pro's and automatic scoring penalties in place of doing turns.

I think it is very important to leave emotion out of rules discussions and most everyone on this thread is guilty of that to some extent, and I have been in the past. Learn the process, learn how to file a protest and don't be afraid to go in the room ever. Even if you loose a race you will gain valuable knowledge.

It also pays to know who the rules experts are in your fleet and ask them questions.

Jeff..

I assume that by TACTICAL... you mean... enter wide come out close to the mark.

If So... I disagree with your interpretation.... My understanding is that Mark Room means that you sail directly to and round the mark in a seamanlike manner. ...

Anyone else have an opinion on this one?

Noting that TACTICAL ROUNDING is no longer a definition in the rules and used here as a description for enter wide... come out tight.

Hmmm that's a tricky one, but at least for the past 4 years under the current rules we've still been applying tactical and seamanlike in the room and on the water. Maybe I'm smoking crack but if 2 boats are overlapped on starboard, and the overlap was established by the boat originally clear astern, the inside boat has room to make a tactical rounding and the outside boat cannot luff her above her proper course. In team racing the otuside boat would gybe twice quickly to re-establish overlap but the inside boat can still make a tactical rounding, the outside boat now has room to take the inside boat head to wind past the mark and let their teammates slip by. That is my understanding, hopefully I'm not wrong...

Mark, I think we agree. I believe you are entitled to room for a tactical rounding, but only while at the mark. Before you are at the mark, you only have room to sail to the mark, so sailing well wide in an effort to round "wide and tight" is not sailing to the mark. While at the mark, however, I believe you are entitled to room to make a smooth, fast rounding, because that would be your proper course in the absence of other boats.

In practice, that means the inside boat doesn't have to make a super aggressive turn at the mark which would stall their boat and kill speed- that is not their proper course.

Sam, I umpire a lot of team racing, it is a lot of fun, and you learn a lot. For me the highlights have been the High School Nationals, NEISA Champs, and Opti TR Nationals... the level of racing at all three was great!

Sometimes you can know all the steps and still not know how to dance.

Wow! Great clarification Jeff..

Thank god... would have been a major faux pax to figure this out at the END of the quad.

Words in this game matter.... Now I really get why they were so keen on us sailors dropping the term TACTICAL rounding from our discussions of Mark Room. ...

One more regatta this weekend.... NOBODY should introduce the new rules (ERIC!) into this discussion until MONDAY... thank you very much.

Ah but sorry I forgot an important part here, the course was a 4 sided course with only one mark and to tack away I would have been going in totally the wrong direction. Would it have been better to do a 360 and hopefully force him to then tack around the mark, either way I was screwed by a slower boat and really not much that I could do about it, is there any point outside of the mark zone where sportsmanship comes into play ?

The terms "tactical rounding" and "seamanlike rounding", like "barging", are often used when explaining the rules, but are not actually mentioned in the rules. They are convenient shorthand, but can lead to misconceptions about a boat's obligations at a mark.

Also, the definitin of "mark-room" has changed in the 2013-2016 rules. If we're going to discuss the limits of mark-room, we should decide which set of rules to use. The differences are slight, but real.

If people want to talk about how to present a case in the protest room, I'm willing to put together some pointers. That would probably best be done in a new thread, though.

Regards,
Eric

Ah - tactically a tough spot. You're not going to out-point a mono after the rounding in that situation, and I see that tacking away wasn't an option. I imagine I would have footed hard to try and break through his lee - if there's a good bit of track left, you really need to get by him to make your rating work. If you're near the finish, you might not have any other option than to do what you did - lock in and hold with him as high as you can to keep ahead of the Pac Men behind you.

Sportsmanship? Supposed to be at the top of the pile throughout the course. He was being a sportsman, in a way, by using the tactical advantage to cancel out your speed advantage. That's a good opportunity for discussion at the bar later - "Hey, good job holding me off after that last mark. You know I would have gotten you if I broke free, right? Cheers - I'll get you next time."

I have been keeping to the 2009-2012 rules. The changes in wording in the new rules are interesting- I haven't spent much time with the new rules because I don't want to confuse myself until I'm done judging for the fall.

I agree the change in the definition of mark room has real consequences!

Eric, I'll bet another term you hear all the time is "overtaking" boat. While I know what the racers are saying I always try to get them to use the terms in the rule book that apply, like "clear ahead" and "clear astern" or "overlapped". Using terms to describe situations that are not used in the RRS almost certainly makes it more difficult for sailors to use and understand the rules. Some racers think that an "overtaking boat" has no rights even after establishing an overlap. As others have pointed out here already, using such terms is a loud and clear signal to judges that they are probably going to have to give this racer a needed rules education the hard way.

In my reading of the rules, If that Musto skiff got in the 3 boat zone first he can hold you to his best seamanship (work out what that is yourself) in a 45ft circle around the mark, after that it is windward gives way to leeward and you take him up head to wind if you can but at no circumstance can you hit him to force him up. If you sail with him regulary show him your red flag before the mark or on the beach before you go out and tell whoever is watching the course to pay attention to your boat. That is all you can do.
An important part of the rules is that an F18 can have its bows 8ft out of the Musto skiffs 45ft circle but hold the rights as the F18 has a 54ft rights circle around the mark. This positioning is very difficult to prove off the water but if the smaller boat is level with the big boat then big boat holds the rights.
This could be a very difficult concept for dinghy sailors to understand especially if they know all the rules already like FDUB

Keep in mind it's not the boat that reaches the zone first that has rights. If a boat hits the zone first, but there is a boat overlapped inside, the outside boat owes inside room.

Also, you can not take a boat head to wind if rule 17 is on.

Not sure why you would assume dinghy sailors have less rules knowledge, the boat you sail is pretty irrelevant.

Skiff sailors are the least likely to obey the rules. If a 15ft dinghy like the Musto described above is 53ft from the mark coming straight down and a F18 53ft from the mark is coming from wide, the F18 has established it's rights as per the rules, the dinghy must go behind the F18 unless the F18 is not sailed with proper seamanship.
The rules state you have established your position when you hit the zone, this is the hardest part of the rules because it doesn't matter if that Dinghy is going 5 times faster if he cannot round without affecting the F18 he must do a 360 or be disqualified. Just as the other ex dinghy sailor in this thread should be disqualified for saying he deliberately caused a collision with the inside boat and didn't do a 360 after he felt they had taken enough room.

In the case you are describing, the Musto may very well have rights if there is an overlap between the two boats when the F18 reaches the zone.

If no overlap exists, then you are correct in saying that the F18 does not owe room even if later an overlap is established.

It is also important to note that the penalty would be a two turns penalty (360 and 720 are no longer in the rules), unless the SIs amend the penalty to one turn.

I also don't understand the anti-dinghy sailor sentiment. I sail both cats and dinghies- there is zero difference.

Forget the negative dinghy thing, I've given examples for everyone of my opinions on rule interpretation. Using my last post as the example could you tell me your reason that if you were that dinghy you might not give way to me? I am not challenging here I am wanting it set in my head

A good example is two boats approaching a leeward mark to be left to port. Both are on port, and an overlap exists between the two boats.
The leeward boat is slightly ahead, with the bow of the windward boat even with the leeward boat's shrouds.
The leeward boat reaches the zone first, which is defined as three of her boat lengths.

18.2(b) says:
If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone,
the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside
boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the
zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give
her mark-room.

In this case then, the outside boat, despite reaching the zone first, owes the inside boat mark room.

Totally agree with that, in my above example theres two boats coming in on a roughly 90 degree seperation your in the dinghy, I'm on the F18 were same distance from the mark as much as you can tell on the water. Why would you not give way to me?