| Re: Dagger Repair
[Re: yurdle]
#266016 10/10/13 12:29 PM 10/10/13 12:29 PM |
Joined: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,658 Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus... catman
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Posts: 1,658 Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus... | I would take a dremel with a cut off wheel and cut down the depth of the cut off wheel along the trailing edge where the damage is. A slot if you will. Then use carbon, I like around 15lb biax glass , lay up a layer or two a little longer than the slot and about 1-2 inches wide on some wax paper or use what method you like. After the glass has kicked, Trim so it fits into the slot. Mix some epoxy and glue it into the slot. From here you can make up a filler with epoxy, some West graphite powder will make it all black. Shape it up. Now you have a edge than can take some abuse without crushing.
Have Fun
| | | Re: Dagger Repair
[Re: catman]
#266017 10/10/13 12:33 PM 10/10/13 12:33 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | I would take a dremel with a cut off wheel and cut down the depth of the cut off wheel along the trailing edge where the damage is. A slot if you will. Then use carbon, I like around 15lb biax glass , lay up a layer or two a little longer than the slot and about 1-2 inches wide on some wax paper or use what method you like. After the glass has kicked, Trim so it fits into the slot. Mix some epoxy and glue it into the slot. From here you can make up a filler with epoxy, some West graphite powder will make it all black. Shape it up. Now you have a edge than can take some abuse without crushing. +1
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Dagger Repair
[Re: jollyrodgers]
#266168 10/13/13 05:15 AM 10/13/13 05:15 AM |
Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 524 Petten Netherlands northsea junkie
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Posts: 524 Petten Netherlands | The rule for kevlar is bury it deep. It soaks up water and only forms a mechanical bond whereas carbon forms a chemical bond with the epoxy. First I like to show you some explanation about how epoxies and polyesters do work: epoxy and polyesters The cloth in a laminate will always suck up some water when the surface is damaged. (That's why they fill themselves with resin too) Glass, carbon, kevlar or whatever, it makes no difference. If the carbon molecules of the carboncloth really are bonded in the epoxy molecules during the hardening (the polymerisation), like you said, then this should mean less stable (disturbed)epoxy molecules. The strenght of a laminate is largely determined by the fibers in the cloth you use. The resin only keeps all the fibers together; to be more precise, holds them at their fixed position to each other. It fills the space between the fibres and fills them and holds them internally.
Last edited by northsea junkie; 10/13/13 08:53 AM.
ronald RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)
hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?.. "huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
| | | Re: Dagger Repair
[Re: Jake]
#266211 10/14/13 08:53 AM 10/14/13 08:53 AM |
Joined: Apr 2012 Posts: 190 Bille
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Posts: 190 | I tore up the trailing edge on one of my daggers recently. ...
Any advice is welcome. Thanks
Rob ... ... Vacuum bagging is probably overkill on that too (did I just say that?). To repair those dings, I mix up some finely minced glass fibers (either bought that way or self made) and fill the void with that putty. I tape a hotel key cards to both sides of the board to form the flat sides to leave very little fairing. What Jake said, but forget about the plastic . Make your own chopped fibers by rolling some 4oz glass up on a +/- 45deg and dicing the end every 1/4" with some SHARP scissors. Mix 30% chopped glass fibers with 70% WEST SYSTEM #404 High Density Filler, and add epoxy. http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...ord=404+high+dencity+filler#.Ulv93lNqkuQMake the mixture dry enough that it will NOT elongate off the stirr-stick when pulled up out from the mixing can. Tape the edges of your damaged aria with the Blue 3-M painters mask , so when Ya sand down initially , you'll hit the tape but not destroy it. At this point, i usually paint on a bit of epoxy before mixing in the filler, then use a Blue shop-towel to remove almost ALL of it. Use a bit of 3" wide tape on the bottom side to hold the mixture in place while it goes off. SANDING No need to wear a mask here, i use a File and water, till i hit the tape, or 40grit wet/dry sandpaper. When Ya hit the tape then pull it and switch to 100grit wet/dry ; then 180 ... If you spend more than 1/2 hour labor on this job, then your thinking Too much and need More Beer !! Bille | | | Re: Dagger Repair
[Re: yurdle]
#266218 10/14/13 09:06 AM 10/14/13 09:06 AM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 5,525 | What do you clean your files with? I've never found anything that I really liked.
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: Dagger Repair
[Re: yurdle]
#266235 10/14/13 11:07 AM 10/14/13 11:07 AM |
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,119 Northfield Mn Karl_Brogger
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Posts: 4,119 Northfield Mn | Compressed air and a file brush works well with contact cement.
I'm boatless.
| | | Re: Dagger Repair
[Re: yurdle]
#266250 10/14/13 02:30 PM 10/14/13 02:30 PM |
Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 524 Petten Netherlands northsea junkie
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Posts: 524 Petten Netherlands | Why do you all try to invent the wheel again??
Go and visit a coach-worker and see how he repairs dented car parts with all kind of putties. These guys have special files for this work. I have some at home and they do work marvellous with there special profile which is designed to not slib up.
But it's all your punishment because you are using sort of putty for repairing cat's. That has no constructual strenght at all. When hit again, it will break off.
I know it's a tempting and quick method, but don't do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ronald RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)
hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?.. "huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
| | | Re: Dagger Repair
[Re: northsea junkie]
#266253 10/14/13 04:13 PM 10/14/13 04:13 PM |
Joined: Oct 2002 Posts: 307 maui jollyrodgers
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Posts: 307 maui | Hi northsea junkie, Your linked essay didn't cover the difference between the bonding of epoxy to carbon vs. the epoxy to kevlar. i am no chemist, but i was told by someone that i trust that the reason kevlar fuzzes up when you sand it is because there is only a mechanical bond, whereas carbon and glass have the mechanical and chemical bond. Also i have been told that the reason epoxy has part A and part B is because the part B isn't really a hardener like polyester has a hardener (also called catalyst). Ploy will go off eventually w/no hardener, but part A of epoxy will never harden on it's own. Sure a sanded and unfinished surface of carbon will soak a minute amount of water, but exposed kevlar soaks water like sponge, plus you can't get it very smooth like you can with carbon. It's no big deal to put an unfinished board on the water that has exposed carbon or glass, but if there was any exposed kevlar the board would prolly be ruined. Bury the kevlar deep if you insist on using it because if you hit it while sanding you just created another step. The plastic sheeting trick that i mentioned works really well for laminating areas about the size of a rudder or smaller. You will be amazed at the amount of air that you can squeegee out, and the surface is shinny when you peel the plastic. Also i have found that using clear surfboard epoxy which has uv inhibitors tends to save time in the long run. It's not the strongest epoxy but is good enough for most purposes, and some surfboard epoxies are better than others. The fibers do most of the work, but there are resins with extremely good properties that will add a lot to the strength of the part. The rule for kevlar is bury it deep. It soaks up water and only forms a mechanical bond whereas carbon forms a chemical bond with the epoxy. First I like to show you some explanation about how epoxies and polyesters do work: epoxy and polyesters The cloth in a laminate will always suck up some water when the surface is damaged. (That's why they fill themselves with resin too) Glass, carbon, kevlar or whatever, it makes no difference. If the carbon molecules of the carboncloth really are bonded in the epoxy molecules during the hardening (the polymerisation), like you said, then this should mean less stable (disturbed)epoxy molecules. The strenght of a laminate is largely determined by the fibers in the cloth you use. The resin only keeps all the fibers together; to be more precise, holds them at their fixed position to each other. It fills the space between the fibres and fills them and holds them internally. | | | Re: Dagger Repair
[Re: jollyrodgers]
#266254 10/14/13 05:10 PM 10/14/13 05:10 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Let's remember too that most of these repairs are being asked to hold up to compressive loads...the fibers really don't matter that much when repairing a ding on the trailing edge of a dagger board.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Dagger Repair
[Re: jollyrodgers]
#266265 10/14/13 10:41 PM 10/14/13 10:41 PM |
Joined: Apr 2012 Posts: 190 Bille
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Posts: 190 | ... i am no chemist, but i was told by someone that i trust that the reason kevlar fuzzes up when you sand it is because there is only a mechanical bond, whereas carbon and glass have the mechanical and chemical bond. ...
You ALMOST got it correct ... When you place a cotton T-shirt in water, Ya get a WET cotton T-shirt ; the water actually permeates the cotton fibers. When you place a carbon in water, Ya get a WET carbon ; the water actually permeates the carbon fibers. NOT SO with Kevlar,when Ya place Kevlar in water the water dos NOT permeate the actual fibers. It's kinda like placing a plactic comb in water, Ya get water dripping down the sides of the plactic, but it doesn't soak through. That's One reason Kevlar doesn't work for Squat for a bond on Nomex-Honneycomb ! Bille BTW, the glass fibers in that mix i suggested ... DOES make it structural.
Last edited by Bille; 10/14/13 10:43 PM.
| | | Re: Dagger Repair
[Re: Bille]
#266267 10/15/13 03:53 AM 10/15/13 03:53 AM |
Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 524 Petten Netherlands northsea junkie
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Posts: 524 Petten Netherlands | That's One reason Kevlar doesn't work for Squat for a bond on Nomex-Honneycomb ! But on a honneycomb you always have a real problem with bondage of the two exterieur layers, regardless of the sort of laminate. I'm still very surprised that they use it in boatbuilding. If you have followed the last Volvo ocean races, you certainly have seen the complete delaminated panels on the Imoca boats (all with honeycomb sandwhich core). We in Holland have tried this honeycomb cores already 20-25 years ago in our surfboardconstructions. As editor of a surfboardmagazine in those days,I have tested prototypes with honeycomb. That was a disaster; they were all jumped to pieces!
ronald RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)
hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?.. "huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
| | | Re: Dagger Repair
[Re: Bille]
#266268 10/15/13 05:45 AM 10/15/13 05:45 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina |
BTW, the glass fibers in that mix i suggested ... DOES make it structural.
It's not a structural repair in the sense that it doesn't see broad tension stresses over that area of the board (like the outer skin at the mid-point of the board would see). Also in the sense that if your repair fails, it will not compromise the structure of the board. High modulus fibers excel in tension as opposed to compression. The trailing edge sees crushing point loads (in compression) on impacts and my point is that placing high modulus fibers in something that sees this kind of focused compressive loads doesn't really add much over using fiberglass or even just fumed silica as a thickening agent.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Dagger Repair
[Re: Jake]
#266270 10/15/13 07:14 AM 10/15/13 07:14 AM |
Joined: Apr 2012 Posts: 190 Bille
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Posts: 190 |
BTW, the glass fibers in that mix i suggested ... DOES make it structural.
... * ... Yes to ALL of that. I should have added, that the size of the repair will make a Big difference if i use Glass to reconnect the skins after the repair. Anything over the size of 1/4" square and I would use glass. Glass over a repair, if an 8oz were sufficient, then i Always use (3) layers of 3oz finish glass because it has a very tight weave and it's rather thin. the first layer would be 3' larger than the repaired aria, the second is 1.5" larger, and the last is 3/4" larger than the repair aria. Large repairs need a minimum of 2" overlap to all sides of a repaired aria to reconnect the skins. Adding a fairing coat of epoxy with West System 410 Microlight is the ideal low-density filler to make the final sanding easy. | | | Re: Dagger Repair
[Re: northsea junkie]
#266271 10/15/13 07:32 AM 10/15/13 07:32 AM |
Joined: Apr 2012 Posts: 190 Bille
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Posts: 190 | That's One reason Kevlar doesn't work for Squat for a bond on Nomex-Honneycomb ! But on a honneycomb you always have a real problem with bondage of the two exterieur layers, regardless of the sort of laminate. I'm still very surprised that they use it in boatbuilding. ... I would NOT use Nomex-honneycomb in boat building because of everything you just stated ; it works rather well on aircraft because the skin loads are much lower. Usially the skins will only take twisting moments in an aircraft wing. I have a Rigid-Wing Hang glider that is 10 years old, and i will pass-out before my wing will break ; the core is Nomex-honeycomb. The stuff is a Bitch to work with if a repair is needed. I nailed a wing-tip one day and it took me 10 hours to repair it ; make a mistake and I'll be tossing my reserve. That Really helps to focus on your work !!!! I was Lucky in that the guy who taught me is the same guy who made one of the three prototypes of the F-35 . I built a cantalievered rigid wing HG that he designed, and had the good fortune to have him as my teacher on the project. After which i was the test pilot because at one time i was # 4 in the world at ACRO on a HG. Bille | | | Re: Dagger Repair
[Re: bacho]
#266272 10/15/13 07:35 AM 10/15/13 07:35 AM |
Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 932 Solomon's Island, MD samc99us
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Posts: 932 Solomon's Island, MD | It's a worthy thought, but I can't think of a material that behaves appropriately outside of a university lab...essentially you are looking for something that deforms, but returns to original shape quickly, and has high fracture toughness...I had a prof working on a self-healing composite structure aimed at aircraft wings: http://m.iopscience.iop.org/0964-1726/22/2/025031All yours for $1 million. In the mean time, I'll continue putting thin webbing in the back of the trunk, has considerably reduced the number of these repairs, as has avoiding the bottom.
Scorpion F18
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